Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Micro-Small Stakes Limit Discussions about micro-small stakes Texas Hold'em (all stakes up to around 15/30)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-09-2017, 12:11 AM   #1
DTLB
adept
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 829
8/16 - 88 line check

EP limps, MP raises. No reads as he's an orbit in at the table. I call next to act with 88 fully expecting a couple more calls. Surprisingly, only EP calls.

3-way (6.5 SB): 962
MP cbets, all call. (Should I raise here?)

3-way (4.5 BB): 3
X to me, I bet, both call

3-way (7.5 BB): 5
X through

Thoughts?
DTLB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 12:46 AM   #2
Montrealcorp
Pooh-Bah
 
Montrealcorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 5,539
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

Seem good
Montrealcorp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 12:50 AM   #3
Niediam
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 5,995
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

Preflop: If you truly believe that you are going to get a couple calls behind you then cool.

Flop: I raise with the intention of making EP fold hand likes JT.

Turn/River: I like.
Niediam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 01:54 AM   #4
Clumsy Surgeon
newbie
 
Clumsy Surgeon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 28
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

3B pre, raise flop, nh on the turn, as played value bet river.
Clumsy Surgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 02:02 AM   #5
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,736
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

What's your read on what calls you here? Are your opponents tricky enough to sandbag a flush there? AK- may pay you off.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 03:28 AM   #6
DonkeyOnTilt
adept
 
DonkeyOnTilt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: CP 20/40 playing like a tagfish
Posts: 766
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

3bet pre. Hand plays differently.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
DonkeyOnTilt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 04:30 AM   #7
DTLB
adept
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 829
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

I'm not totally convinced about 3betting 88 vs a typical 8/16 raise. We're flipping at best or crushed. A lot of players here don't even raise AQ or TT. Some don't raise AK. I know 3b takes control of the hand but it still leaves us open to getting 4b which sucks.

If I knew villain was a loose raiser I'd be happy to 3b. But not so much vs an unknown. Let me know if I'm wrong...
DTLB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 04:32 AM   #8
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,736
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

Imo you're not wrong. Others will disagree.

Against about 75% of my 8/16 pool, I'd gladly 3bet. So many just see "pretty hand" and just raise, you need to put more weight on suited connectors, small pairs, etc. than you may think.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 04:35 AM   #9
DTLB
adept
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 829
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

Quote:
Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
What's your read on what calls you here? Are your opponents tricky enough to sandbag a flush there? AK- may pay you off.
EP is loose passive. Usually xr when he has it OTT. He's probably not sandbagging a flush here but possibly TP, 65, 55 or a straight somehow.

MP almost certainly has AK/AQ here. No read on him so not sure if he'd call a bet. I'd guess no on this board.
DTLB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 07:12 AM   #10
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,736
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

Pre-flop is debatable. While I'm not a 3/bet or fold dogmatist, I do see some merits to it. I either decide whether I want to branch-out some cold-calls, or not, and have a cold-call tool-belt containing some AKs, AQs, KQs, AJs, maybe ATs, 88,99. My thinking is I want adequate coverage as equity, and multiway pot potential. I'm cold-calling if I think I can get some other cold-callers behind, which is why it's good to look both ways before crossing the street. Also, against nits, some of these hands are folds. Usually you can spot nits with non-verbal clues (how they dress and act, etc.) There are nits in these games that do well because of the weak passive players that don't really merit consideration with some of these hands. My first assumption though is that it's a loose raiser, not a nit.

I'm betting the river, though. The chances of the AK high paying you off are just too good to pass up on. Re-evaluate the river if raised. This sounds like another bet/fold hand, but there's a non-zero chance that someone will do a bluff here. They are far more likely to raise-bluff with the diamond hitting than the queen hitting in the other hand. Still not calling without a read.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 08:20 AM   #11
asmitty
Pooh-Bah
 
asmitty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: betting if checked to
Posts: 4,176
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

I 3bet (or fold) preflop. I also bet river - I expect EP to donk with everything that beats us here and this seems like a good spot to vb thin.
asmitty is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 08:35 AM   #12
jdr0317
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 5,478
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

I'd three bet pre: we either knock out the limper or force him to call 2 cold with a weak range. Both of which are good for us. His presence (barring him being nitty) should give us the requisite equity against even strong ranges.
jdr0317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 10:37 AM   #13
jdr0317
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 5,478
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

Oh yeah I'd value bet river, I expect PFR to have whiffed overs (AK-AJ) a ton and caller probably doesn't have a 9 or a flush.
jdr0317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 02:21 PM   #14
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 9,784
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

Preflop like several others have said; I usually prefer a 3-bet here, but if raiser is not loose and you're reasonably expecting several cold callers, a call is ok.

Could use a read on raiser for flop play, but if he will always bet unimproved overs here, I like a raise on the flop.

As played I think EP has a 9 a decent amount of time here, plus the nut drawy card came on the river; flush and open ender both just got there. Really don't see much value in a river bet.
chillrob is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 02:22 PM   #15
Bob148
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: far too young and clever
Posts: 8,628
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

Quote:
Originally Posted by DTLB View Post
I'm not totally convinced about 3betting 88 vs a typical 8/16 raise. We're flipping at best or crushed. A lot of players here don't even raise AQ or TT. Some don't raise AK. I know 3b takes control of the hand but it still leaves us open to getting 4b which sucks.

If I knew villain was a loose raiser I'd be happy to 3b. But not so much vs an unknown. Let me know if I'm wrong...
I think calling is quite profitable from a strict expected value viewpoint of (fold = 0ev). However, I think 3 betting preflop is even more profitable vs all but the nittiest of tight nits.

Think about this:

Quote:
A lot of players here don't even raise AQ or TT. Some don't raise AK.
Well this guy did raise. So we gotta put him on a range. There are a few different things that could be happening here:

a) he's a very tight player that only raises KK+. That's about 2% of all starting hands.

b) he's a moderately tight player that will raise JJ+, AK. That's about 5% of all starting hands, give or take a few % I think.

c) he's a standard tight tag that plays by the book preflop ranges. He raises 66+, AJo+, suited broadways, A9s, etc.

d) he's a slightly loose lag that will raise even more hands than the above.

e) he's a very loose lag that will raise even more hands that I'm not in the mood to type out.

f) he's a maniac.

Now, considering all that, let's go back to your statement:

Quote:
A lot of players here don't even raise AQ or TT. Some don't raise AK.
Do you really think that he's type (a)? If I was a betting man, and I most definitely am, I'd put the over under somewhere between (d) and (e) because remember, this guy did raise it up. So either he's a lag that's playing a range that we do quite well against, which is quite likely, or he's a nit that only raises KK+, or any type of player in between. A quick glance at the bayes theorem notes on the back of my hand tells me that the tighter types will only pick up a raising hand between 2% and 10% of the time, while the looser types will pick up a raising hand >25%-30% of the time. Thus just the simple act of this guy raising it preflop tells me that he's more likely to be a lag than a nit. With each action, your opponents pigeon hole themselves.

Because of all that mumbo jumbo, I think it's clear that without a player pool specific read that players in this game hardly ever raise, 88 is a particularly strong hand.

ATTACK!!!!!!!!!!

-----

besides that I think the hand is well played postflop.
Bob148 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 03:17 PM   #16
jdr0317
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 5,478
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

Say the original limper is extremely loose passive, limping 50% of hands and not even raising TT.

Then say the raiser is a nit, and his range is AQ+, ATs+, 88+.

I argue we should still 3 bet 88. The most likely scenario by far to this action is everyone folds around to the limper who calls, and the PFR calls, and we have ~ 30.3% equity preflop, having invested 3 sb into 10.5 sb, with the advantage of position. We should be prepared to give up w/ hands that have terrible flop equity, though, as given read, our opponent's range is strong enough to where cbetting 100% isn't going to be optimal.

Plus, people are often way less tight than you give them credit for after a limper, and for a lot of players, it's like blood in the water to see a limp, so 88 will likely stand to have the plurality of equity, in position, in a 3 bet pot.
jdr0317 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2017, 04:17 PM   #17
ninefingershuffle
old hand
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,753
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

Quote:
Originally Posted by asmitty View Post
I 3bet (or fold) preflop. I also bet river - I expect EP to donk with everything that beats us here and this seems like a good spot to vb thin.
Concur with all of this
ninefingershuffle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2017, 06:11 AM   #18
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,736
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

Thinking about it again, there is almost no one in my 8/16 pool that does not get 3bet w 88. I can't think of anyone that plays solid UTG or just very nitty.

Even more so against a raised limp.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2017, 02:47 PM   #19
C Put 6163
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 299
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

I fold pre, but as played, nh.

I doubt a bet on the river gets paid off. It gets called rarely by a hand OP has beaten and often by a hand that beats OP. I would not fear MP as much as EP. Agree with those who suggest MP's hand heavily weighted toward broadway overs that missed. AK might payoff, but I doubt it. Is your read such that MP is the kind of player who would believe YOU are betting through with only A high? (If MP was calling because she thought you were on a draw, your draw got there on the river, and MP folds).

But what does EP likely have that caused EP to continue to the river? Ax is possible with x = a pair with the board. But other than that, I doubt EP is calling. All the small cards on the board diminishes the likelihood of EP having a small pocket pair that is smaller than 88. Even if EP has a pocket pair below 88, the likelihood of a river call seems low. A flush draw is a strong possibility, and if EP is a loose passive, 87 is also in EPs range. A fair number of combos with a 9 (in addition to A9) could be in EPs range (any 9+suited broadway, 9/8, 10/9, 9/7s, and -- depending on how fishy EP is -- maybe even 9/6s). Finally, as mentioned above, this board is an easy bluff raise board, especially for EP. I suppose at what would be 9.5:1, OP would call the raise, but it's a crying call with a prayer that it's a bluff catcher.
C Put 6163 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 04:57 PM   #20
dantheman_05
centurion
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 191
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

Quote:
Originally Posted by DTLB View Post
No reads as he's an orbit in at the table.
Think deeper. You actually have more information than you think.

Male or female player ?
Age ?
How much did they buy in for ?
Do they seem nervous like they don't play often ?
What's their overall demeanor like ? Alpha or beta personality type ?
Did they post blind when they sat ?
What time of day is it ? 3pm or 3am ?
Etc etc
dantheman_05 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2017, 05:46 PM   #21
SetofJacks
veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,110
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

What if it's a nondescript MAWG buying in during the evening for a typical buy-in amount?
SetofJacks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2017, 11:40 AM   #22
Bob148
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: far too young and clever
Posts: 8,628
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

Quote:
Alpha or beta personality type ?
or c) IDGAF about your pecking order.

Bob148 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 11:38 PM   #23
BobC
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 74
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

Orbit? What is an/the orbit?
BobC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 11:40 PM   #24
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 9,784
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobC View Post
Orbit? What is an/the orbit?
One round of blinds.
chillrob is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2017, 05:11 AM   #25
HUMBLE.
journeyman
 
HUMBLE.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: on my grind, cousin.
Posts: 342
Re: 8/16 - 88 line check

+1 3b pre.
HUMBLE. is online now   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online