...as it probably an indicator of a larger issue.

Couple EP limps, MP raise, I think one CC and I call SB (5 chips so effectively a CC) with Kh Th, BB and limpers all call.

Flop: Ts 5s 3d

I check, expecting it to check to the raiser who has been pretty liberally c-betting at which point I plan to CR, but it only gets as far as the first limper who leads and now the second limper raises.PFR CC LP folds and it’s on us.

While this percolates, it occurs to me that I really don’t have a donking range out of the blinds in a raised pot when I’m not the aggressor. That can’t possibly be right, can it?

Before I respond, I guess I want to clarify what your actual question is.

Are you asking if you should be donking in this spot?

I think your plan to xr is fine given that all types of hands will bet the flop in lower limit games in my experience. Keeping in mind that both of these players limped, you could very well be facing a bet from a hand like 56, or 64, and a raise from a hand like T9 or JT.

I tend to donk out of the blinds more often when I have flopped a much stronger hand, hoping to be able to 3bet if the pfr continues to be aggressive.

Yes, in this case specifically and in general the whole donking in a raised pot seems to have fallen away from my game which means I’m probably check-whatevering too much

Every. Single. Time. that I post a hand where I donk in that spot I get lectured. To heck w/ these ppl, just bet the hand, that's what I think.

In the scheme of trying to find balanced ranges, it can be perfectly right. It may not be the most profitable thing, but never donking at least keeps you from having unbalanced ranges that are harder to work with. (Are you *only* donking top pair here? That makes you transparent. But then what types of other hands do you donk to keep your hands mixed?)

I'm fine with never donking into a multiway pot against a preflop aggressor.

As for the hand itself, at 6-12 I think I can fold this on the flop for two bets. It would take some special circumstances for me to 3-bet, where "special" means "wild players that can bet/raise second pair and a whole bunch of draws."

1) I don't think you're in trouble against the donker. I would assume there's a mixture of top pairs with various kickers and some drawing hands.

2) The raiser is interesting, because this raise can often shut out huge chunks of his range. Some players may bet/raise any flush draw, but others only raise if they have a "good" hand (where "good" is in the eye of the beholder -- so T8s top pair may be "good" here).

3) The preflop raiser's coldcall is another one where assumptions are huge. Will he be stubborn with overcards here? Will he hold onto a pocket pair like 9s or 7s here? If not, then this very likely an overpair that's not sure where it stands.

In a vacuum, I'm content to throw this one away. We need both players that put in two bets already to be getting frisky (raiser) and stubborn (PFR) at the same time, and I don't like that parlay.

If we had Ks or maybe with K T, I lean towards a coldcall and see where things go (but definitely not committed to showing it down UI).

preflop may be a 3bet but it depends on the player tendencies. certainly nothing wrong with coldcall.

as played on the flop i would now 3bet.

donking frequency out of the blinds mw is in general not something to worry about, and even less so at these stakes where most of your opponents are not paying attention.

+1. The only time to don’t in one of these situations is where there is a real likelihood it will check through

What player tendencies are you looking for to want to 3 bet here pre flop? I'd consider a 3 IP but this seems really thin OOP.

Reconsider. you certainly find nitty passive ep limpers and mp raisers in the 6-12 pool that make this a call. But generally I would 3b and, importantly, not feel the least bit obligated to cbet the flop. Pay attention at showdown(s) and adjust accordingly.

TBH 3-betting pre or post never crossed my mind and that’s probably another issue that needs to be addressed (moreso preflop in this game, I think)

So I cold-called which seems to be the worst option (standard), BB folds and the first limper just calls.

Turn 5d, putting a second flush draw on board

I check again. I don’t think the first limper would lead flop with a 5, so either he has a T or a flopped flush draw + over(s). He checks. Flop raiser bets and the PFR folds. At this point I’m planning on calling and calling one bet on “safe” rivers, obv I’m folding for one more if first limper CR, but he just calls

Yeah this feels very passive considering you have the best hand very often here.

munga nailed it in his post. i'd 3b if they were all typical loose bad and i'd hesitate to 3b if several of them were nits (who coldcall with good hands that diminish my mw equity). and we are not locked into cbetting by any means.

Ok! Thank you!

I must be a nit. I would 3b KQs in this spot. KTs seems way too thin too me.

well they are pretty similar hands, so going from 'definitely 3bet to 'way too thin' over 2 pips' difference might be a slight logical inconsistency

could always stove/equilab it to see what it looks like

I feel like you should have turned a King here

Edit to elaborate: Not only would a King make you top two pair, but you would then also have four outs to hit a full house. Just something to think about.

Unfortunately, I play badly.

River is the 3c, so the flushes missed and I check again.

First limper checks, second limper bets and I call again (which prompted this thread because I cc-cc-call-call WTF) and first limper folds his missed flush

I don't think you should feel so bad about going into call-down mode in this hand.

Thats interesting.
Are we 3betting flop here because we did not 3bet pf or because the pot getting big ?

no, not related to preflop - i would 3bet the flop because i think it's the best play - for the usual reasons - mainly value, a little protection, etc

I'm amused that BBB advocates potentially 3-betting KTs from the SB here after two limps, an MP raise, and a coldcaller, but there are some people who think that QTo from the button after 4 limpers is a fold.

Why is there such a gigantic chasm of perceived preflop value here?

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...-pair-1719298/

What you really want with a hand like KT is to blow overcards out while getting lower pairs and dominated Tx to call. So I certainly wouldn't use this in my donking range.