Great 8/16 game. Only one other non-spewer and he is way too tight.

Passive dude limps utg, all time awful loose fish limps hj, I raise the button with JTo. The super tight sb now three bets. He knows I'm capable of isolating these guys loose, especially on the button so while he is way too tight, he doesn't have to have aces here.

We all call and flop comes KJ6 rainbow. Sb bets and we all call. Turn comes another king. Sb bets again, two more calls and now it's on me. What do I do?

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I usually just overlimp in this situation with offsuit hands like this.

As played, it all depends on if he has TTs or worse or AQ in his pre flop/turn betting range. The super tight players I know usually don't. Not MW at least.

You can fold if your read is strong but it is a huge pot so you better feel confident.

Are you really "isolating" preflop when two players are already in there?

You can fold here if you have a read you can trust, but otherwise call one bet each on turn and river, and expect to lose.

11.5 to 1 immediate just isn’t enough. I’d fold

This guy, if he would 3 bet TT or even AQs, would likely "give up" and check the flop.

He's extremely tight but not passive. I believe he would bet all of his 3-bets on this flop regardless.

I'm also not loving the pfr. You're not really isolating the limpers because it's been folded to you OTB so a raise doesn't shut out the field other than the SB. It's also not a raise for value and being off suit really hurts the playability of the hand.

I would fold OTT given the read of SB. When he 3bets you pre as a "super tight" player, he's not messing around even though he knows you can raise your BN light. The reason is because there's two limpers in the hand and they're calling his 3b like 99% of the time so he knows he's going to have to play a MW bloated pot oop. I think his 3b range is going to be pretty narrow. Don't forget you can still cap it pre so is he really going to 3b 55 or A9o or 78s?

If we call turn, what card are we hoping for OTR? A ten completes AQ and TT while still losing to AA QQ and Kx and we're not sure if a J is good. If it is we still might not even win it outright. SB might cbet AQ or TT OTF but if he's super tight as you say then I doubt he'd barrel again OTT after everyone called flop.

The best case scenario if we call turn is that river x thru and we win at SD. But that seems to be a tough parlay in my books. You have a mediocre hand and a read that SB's a nit. I'd go with that read.

This isn't a great raise. Just limp along and play a small pot with a weak hand.

"Super tight" player is 3-betting because he thinks you're isolating two limpers? Nah.

I muck and I don't think twice about it. It's not clear that you have 5 outs here. Even if he "only" has AA (or QQ), you only have 2 outs. I'm not "worried" about the two other players coming along, but one of them has a weak king a non-trivial amount of the time.

I didn't say he's 3 betting because I'm trying to play with these bad players I just said he knows what I'm up to. You're correct that he isn't changing his range.

I still like raising. I think there is value in getting 3 ways with initiative against a weak player and a super donater.

What do you put "super tight" SB's preflop range at?

And then what part of that range bets the turn after the top card pairs and he was called 3 ways on the flop? Answer this, and you'll have insight into whether there's value.

I'd say his range is 99+, AJo+, AJs+, KQs, KQ and QJs. I think against these two he'd bet twice with his entire range. I can probably just plug that into a calc to get an exact answer just posted it real time basically because I thought it was a tough spot.

In your view, is the bolded more of an optimistic or pessimistic assumption? You should get in the habit of thinking about two ranges to keep yourself honest. It's easy to get into the land of wishful thinking. So be optimistic, pessimistic, and then split the difference.

Even from this list, you can quickly estimate that you're not exactly doing great. The only hand you beat from the unpaired range is AQ and the only paired hands you beat are TT/99. If you're only beating one unpaired combo and two pairs (out of five unpaired combos as 6 pairs), it's probably not a value raise.

Edit: Sorry -- The raise comment was probably for preflop and I got my mental lines crossed. I still don't think it's a great raise. Your hand is not that good. I think you're overly optimistic about your ability to extract value postflop. The reason is that you need to have both of the following true:

1) Your opponents will call you down with crap.
2) Your opponents will fold hands you want them to fold.

It's rare that you'll get both.

I don't think im being optimistic. The second limper is an epic loser and legend in the entire card room. In my mind I'm ahead of AQ, AJ (Of course I block that) and 99. Pretty dead to everything else. Neither limper rates to have better than my holding in this spot.

Thanks for the analysis aaron.

What is the equivilent value suited connector to JTo? Because on the button after 2 weak limpers I'm usually raising 98s+ IMO, possibly lower. Lower pocket pairs like 55-22 are kind of interesting here. Also hands like KTo,QJo,QTo etc. J9s seems like a snap raise, but what about Q8s and K7s?

I raise literally all of those hands in this spot, and I don't think it's a mistake. They all have great playability from the button, especially with initiative.

Responses itt pretty much nailed it. The PF raise is just too optimistic and as played just fold the turn. Also I can’t imagine a super tight guy getting the flop and turn with his entire range.

Hf

You're trying to tell me you don't raise the button after a weak player limps and yuvi limps behind? That's wrong sir. I appreciate the input though.

Your interpretation of "Your PF is just too optimistic" seems quite wrong, sir.

Maybe think through the analysis like this:

What is your preflop equity edge against the two limpers? Give them ranges. Now throw in the fact that SB/BB have yet to act and they both have a 10% chance that they've got a top 10% hand. How do you like your equity now?

I didn't raise because I thought I had an equity edge. I raised because I want to play pots in position with bad players.

For some context, the range of the second limper is approximately the bottom 40% of hands. His HUD would read something like 95/60

You get the same thing with limping.

If SB is "tight" (as suggested) then you don't need to worry about him as much because he's not going to give you problems. If BB is decent, he's still seeing most flops anyway because he's getting 7:1 (or better).

I don't believe that the preflop investment gives as high of a return as you think you do.

Even if this were true, it's not heads up against that range. You still have "passive UTG" in the pot, as well as likely getting at least one of the blinds.

I guess we differ on how to best exploit this spot against these kinds of players. I for one will continue to try to see flops with initiative and not letting the big blind knuckle his option.
FWIW I would limp J8o and I'm not sure about J9o though I suspect I'd limp that too.


Results spoiled below:

You probably shouldn't call people out by their real name and location on an internet forum.

Aaron's last couple of posts is what I was getting at with the "too optimistic" comment. You have a passive limper in the hand and the blinds are yet to act. You still get to play in position by limping. I mean raising isn't horrible (it's better than folding) it just isn't as good as limping in this instance.