Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
/LHE Winstar QQ facing flop action /LHE Winstar QQ facing flop action

09-21-2018 , 04:40 PM
Forum's been pretty slow so I'm going to post a low-content hand.

Table so far has been playing juicier than a medium-rare marbled ribeye. One hand in particular - I raise AQs on the button after 4 limpers, BB and limpers call, Q-high monotone flop not my suit. Checks to me I bet 2 callers. Turn is a blank, checks to me I bet 2 callers. River is another Q, checks to me I bet 2 callers. First caller says, "You have the queen don't you?" and mucks when he sees he's right. The second caller turns over 42s for a flush.

On to the hand in question. 5 limpers, I raise QQ on the button. The villain who never raised his flopped flush is now in the BB. He calls as do all the limpers.

Flop 487tt not my suit, pot 7BB, 7 players.

2 checks, a villain who I've seen call down with top pair bets, fold, call, fold.

Surely this is a raise on the button, no? I'm probably beaten but I would love to see a cheap showdown if possible. I was thinking about this because a couple threads down I raised QTo on a Q-high flop in almost exactly this circumstance, so why in the world am I hesitating to do it with QQ?

As played, sadly, I just called (hey, I still make mistakes). SB checkraised. Better and caller called.

Now at this point, there are 10.5BB in the pot, so I'm getting 21 to 1 on a call. Do I remedy my earlier mistake and 3-bet here? Remember, I saw villain just call 3 streets with a made flush, and now he's checkraising with 3 other people in the hand. As played I just called.

Turn was a 3 of the 3rd suit. 11BB in the pot. SB bets, better calls, fold. I'm getting 13 to 1 on a call. Pot's too big to fold, I gotta call closing the action.

River's a 6 of the 4th suit. Bet and call. Is there any chance whatsoever that my QQ is good here? As played I called, pot was too big.
/LHE Winstar QQ facing flop action Quote
09-21-2018 , 06:11 PM
yes flop is a raise and why do you say you are probably beaten?
/LHE Winstar QQ facing flop action Quote
09-21-2018 , 07:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan
Flop 487tt not my suit, pot 7BB, 7 players.

2 checks, a villain who I've seen call down with top pair bets, fold, call, fold.

Surely this is a raise on the button, no? I'm probably beaten but I would love to see a cheap showdown if possible.
Yes, definitely a raise. It's waaaay too early to be thinking you're "probably beat" when it's the flop and you have an overpair facing just a single bet.

Quote:
I was thinking about this because a couple threads down I raised QTo on a Q-high flop in almost exactly this circumstance, so why in the world am I hesitating to do it with QQ?
It could have been a little bit of tilt because of the previous situation you were in. Those things mess with your head sometimes.

Quote:
Now at this point, there are 10.5BB in the pot, so I'm getting 21 to 1 on a call. Do I remedy my earlier mistake and 3-bet here? Remember, I saw villain just call 3 streets with a made flush, and now he's checkraising with 3 other people in the hand. As played I just called.
You're not actually "remedying" your previous play. You've already gone down a totally different path, and that's a decision you won't get back. Think of it like hiking. If you took a wrong turn at the previous fork, it's probably not smart to make the decision you should have made at the last fork when you reach the next one.

There's no immediate reason to assume that because of that one hand that he can only check-raise the nuts. You're assuming that villain plays all his hands in a nice orderly manner. Some players like to pump non-nut draws but freeze up when they hit. (For all you know, he's check-raising TPTK because he needs to "protect his hand" -- despite the fact that check-raising in that spot doesn't do that at all...)

I don't know if I would raise or not. Given the action, I think I would end up waiting until the turn to put in more bets. Since we're in position, we can definitely guarantee a bet if everyone decides to slow down on the turn. And we can also opt to not put in the extra bets if a bad card falls and the action gets a little crazy.

Quote:
Turn was a 3 of the 3rd suit. 11BB in the pot. SB bets, better calls, fold. I'm getting 13 to 1 on a call. Pot's too big to fold, I gotta call closing the action.
I'd raise this card. Even if you're only in front of SB 40% of the time, you can still make money with a raise here.

Quote:
River's a 6 of the 4th suit. Bet and call. Is there any chance whatsoever that my QQ is good here? As played I called, pot was too big.
Yes.
/LHE Winstar QQ facing flop action Quote
09-21-2018 , 11:21 PM
The board is something like 487-3-6 and you have QQ trying to overcall the river?

Fold.
/LHE Winstar QQ facing flop action Quote
09-21-2018 , 11:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain R
The board is something like 487-3-6 and you have QQ trying to overcall the river?

Fold.
I read that as different suits, so no flush?
/LHE Winstar QQ facing flop action Quote
09-22-2018 , 02:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle
I read that as different suits, so no flush?
I think you're right. Some other parts of the hand seem contradictory (SB and BB are both identified as the k/c of the 42s flush previously) too.

OP, I mean you cannot ascribe the full behavior (how they will play different parts of their range) of another player on the basis of one hand you've seen them play. For instance, so they k/c a small flush on a dangerous board. Does this mean you know they won't semi-bluff when they have a big draw (i.e. T9)? You can't know that.

You've also greatly underrepresented your hand here, which means you have a stronger hand than they think you do. They might think A8 is a value bet.
/LHE Winstar QQ facing flop action Quote
09-22-2018 , 09:59 PM
on the flop, "SB checkraised" should have read "BB checkraised".
on the turn, "SB bets" should have read "BB bets".

By the river there were four different suits on the board.
/LHE Winstar QQ facing flop action Quote
09-22-2018 , 10:28 PM
By the way, I lied. I folded QQ to the checkraise on the flop. Yes, I seriously folded QQ getting 21 to 1. I was on "I'm almost out of chips and if I get this wrong I have to go home" tilt. The bettor had A8o with no threeflush and the checkraiser (mr. I'm never going to raise a flopped baby flush) had A4 with no heart. I pissed away what could have been over a hundred dollar pot.
/LHE Winstar QQ facing flop action Quote
09-22-2018 , 11:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan
By the way, I lied. I folded QQ to the checkraise on the flop. Yes, I seriously folded QQ getting 21 to 1. I was on "I'm almost out of chips and if I get this wrong I have to go home" tilt. The bettor had A8o with no threeflush and the checkraiser (mr. I'm never going to raise a flopped baby flush) had A4 with no heart. I pissed away what could have been over a hundred dollar pot.
You have immediate odds to draw to a queen
/LHE Winstar QQ facing flop action Quote
09-23-2018 , 01:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan
By the way, I lied. I folded QQ to the checkraise on the flop. Yes, I seriously folded QQ getting 21 to 1. I was on "I'm almost out of chips and if I get this wrong I have to go home" tilt. The bettor had A8o with no threeflush and the checkraiser (mr. I'm never going to raise a flopped baby flush) had A4 with no heart. I pissed away what could have been over a hundred dollar pot.
If SB had turned over 65 for the flopped straight, would you be congratulating yourself on your amazing fold?
/LHE Winstar QQ facing flop action Quote
09-23-2018 , 05:37 AM
Remember this - NO ONE check raises for value at these stakes on the flop.

They always wait for the turn.
/LHE Winstar QQ facing flop action Quote
09-23-2018 , 09:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W.
If SB had turned over 65 for the flopped straight, would you be congratulating yourself on your amazing fold?
Honestly, yeah, I probably would have been. Not saying I'd have been correct to do so, just saying I probably would have been.
/LHE Winstar QQ facing flop action Quote
09-24-2018 , 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan
Honestly, yeah, I probably would have been. Not saying I'd have been correct to do so, just saying I probably would have been.
I wouldn't blame you for feeling that way. I've done the same thing.

An important step is to recognize when you're starting to get tilted. When you're tilted, your emotional perception of good/bad goes up and the cognitive perception goes down. Recognizing it in the moment is tough, and it's even more difficult to recognize the precursors (the things you're thinking/feeling BEFORE you have you make that tilty decision).

You might want to define what good/bad decisions are away from the table so that you have a stronger decision-making framework for dealing with tilt. For example, think about what decisions you might make if you're getting close to the lose-and-go-home scenario. Is it better for you to just go home instead of continuing to play and make increasingly bad decisions? Or maybe you can think more about what situations you should be willing to just shrug and get it all-in with.

Overpairs are an example of such a situation. It's relatively rare for folding an overpair to be the right play. So you can just play the odds that you're NOT in one of those scenarios and just shovel your last chips into the pot. It just gives you a bit of a mental buffer to protect yourself from making these types of "they always have it" thought patterns. And if you're beat, then it wasn't meant to be. (Or at least, that's the story you can tell yourself.)
/LHE Winstar QQ facing flop action Quote
09-27-2018 , 03:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan
I was on "I'm almost out of chips and if I get this wrong I have to go home" tilt.
This is the only comment about this hand that really matters—and you were the one who made it.

Regardless of your income or bank balance, because of your deal with your spouse, you're under-rolled to play $4/$8 limit hold'em. And that handicap seriously affected your judgment about how to play this hand. This is the flaw in your game that you need to address.

Is there any chance that pocket Queens are good here?
Not if you fold them on the flop.
/LHE Winstar QQ facing flop action Quote

      
m