Fairly standard SSHE table. Have not seen HJ bet at a flop without at least a pair regardless of position.

UTG limps, HJ limps, I'm on the BTN with AJ and I raise, SB folds, BB calls, limpers call.

8sb. Flop is 985

UTG checks, HJ bets. I ???

I know I'm getting 9 to 1, but this feels like a fold. I have no draws other than my pair outs. Two of my pair outs put 3 to a flush on the board. The blinds are still there to act after me.

If there had been 4 limpers around to me instead of 2 I could see raising to try for a cheap showdown, but this pot seems like it's too small to fight for.

Thoughts?

Thanks
DTXCF

You might as well call Elon Musk to see if there's room on the next Space X rocket so that you can launch your hand into outer space.

Well if you had t9 in villain shoes I guess you would be very happy he would fold AJ to 1 sb right ?

An optimist! We have no idea what HJ has except he's hit the flop, we haven't and who knows if our outs are clean. Just dump it, next hand.

Ok Howard, what would be the worst hand you would peel with here ?

I mean you would fold AK there if you fold AJ , right ?

Yes, I'd fold AK unless one was a spade. When I play 4-8 here's what I see: players limp w/ hands like QQ bec 1. they are afraid of an over card coming or 2. they don't want to lose their customers. I love that last phrase, btw. On this flop HJ can have many things, not just top pair weak kicker and he is betting into a pf raiser. We haven't simply whiffed that flop, it's whiffed us.

I like AK a lot more than AJ here because we'd be a whole lot more likely to win if we hit, since the K is very dry and the J is not.

I should've thought to add that.

Or with the j we have a be straight draw

Oy, vey.

I had a fishy reason for doing this (just for the halibut - get it?), but I decided to stove this. I gave the two limpers a range of any pair, two broadways, two suited, ace, most kings and most offsuit connectors. For HJ I took out the part of that range that didn't make a pair on the flop.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

4,557,922 games 10.460 secs 435,747 games/sec

Board: 8s 9s 5h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 12.767% 12.03% 00.74% 548175 33769.00 { AJo }
Hand 1: 24.541% 23.30% 01.25% 1061776 56835.67 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, A2o+, K6o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o }
Hand 2: 24.508% 23.26% 01.25% 1060123 57029.42 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, A2o+, K6o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o }
Hand 3: 38.184% 36.96% 01.23% 1684537 56042.75 { 22+, A9s-A8s, A5s, K9s-K8s, K5s, Q9s-Q8s, Q5s, J9s-J8s, J5s, T8s+, T5s, 92s+, 82s+, 75s+, 65s, 52s+, 43s, A9o-A8o, A6o-A5o, K9o-K8o, K6o, Q9o, J9o, T9o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o }


---

Change AJo to AKo and our equity actually goes DOWN a tiny bit.
Change HJ's range to the same as the 2 limpers and our equity goes up to about 16%.
Change the board to 589r and our equity actually goes DOWN about a percent.
Change the board to T62o and our equity goes up to almost 22%.
Add 2 more limpers and our equity goes down to about 7.5%.
EDIT: Our flop equity goes up a couple percent if one of our cards is a spade. It goes up to about 22% if we catch a spade on the turn.

FWIW I think we should be talking about whether or not folding AJo is a mistake, not whether or not villain would be happy about it.

I'm happy every time my opponents make unprofitable calls and every time they fold when they had odds to continue.

In our spot we're getting 9 to 1 immediate odds, there are a LOT of turn and river cards we don't want to see, and we don't know what BB and UTG are going to do if we call. I don't even think we can try a free card play here because BB and UTG aren't going to fold strong draws for 2 bets and if they have strong draws they're more likely to hit theirs than we are. Three of our outs, the jacks, set up a redraw for anyone with a T.

Geez, when I type all that it makes me wonder why I even posted the hand in the first place. Howard's first reply says it all.

Would it be correct to try for a free card if the flop were T62 or T74 as long as they weren't monotone? I think it would be - we're certainly not folding the flop, we'd love to see a turn and a river for 2 small bets, and we could knock or overcharge out a lot of hands that have Ks and Qs and gutshots.

On uncoordinated boards I wouldn't mind a flop raise if there's a decent chance of you getting to see turn/river w/o facing a bet and for all you know it might make the other players fold. This board is not one of them.

I want to comment on low limit games in general. Ever since I had to shepherd my mother through various surgeries and re-habs, starting 5 years ago, I dropped down to 8-16 and the occasional 4-8 from 20-40 bec I kept getting called to go home, it affected my mental game, and I don't play for a living. Players do silly things at 20-40 but they get ridiculous at the limits I'm playing now. The advice here is often 'put them on ranges and calculate how you are doing.........' Ofc, I try to do that also but v. 5 players it's tough. I spend most of my time watching faces, body language, how the bets are going in, things like that and I find it works ok.

But here's my point: It's hard to put players on ranges at low limits, they literally can have anything and on this hand you really don't know where you're at. And I'll give an example from today:

EP limps, folds to me MP, I raise K-Qo, some callers including the SB, flop King as top card, bet, get some callers. Turn is no apparent factor, I bet and only SB calls. River is nothing either, SB checks, I bet 99% certain I have the best hand, SB calls. I roll over and SB shows A-A.

That's the trap low limit is. I don't want to say play fit or fold but I do want to say 'there's no shame in folding' when you've whiffed the flop and get bet into on a board like that.

Sounds right to me.

Ranges? What ranges? Not to long ago I played in a 6-12 where there were 2, and sometimes 3, players who played every hand.

I got to see a hand (bec it won) months ago that I just can't get out of my head. UTG limped in w/ J-2o. WTF? It's the first hand he's ever played? He's a billionaire? He's going to die in two weeks and this is the way he's going out? Brain damage? It's his lucky hand? Who the heck limps UTG w/ J-2o?

And this is the reason that I've often said 'I wouldn't believe some of the hands that get posted about on here if I didn't see it for myself.'

You already gave the reason he plays it.

(Because it won.)

Yeah, I like the ones that win.

I don't remember the exact action but I remember a hand where I flopped an ace with ace rag, bet the flop and turn out of position and got called, checked the river and the villain turned over the other 2 aces. I don't remember the board but I remember it was pretty dry.

And I laugh every time I hear someone say LHE isn't beatable because they never fold.

This isn't note worthy? Happens all the time. A guy that limps 95-98% of his hands and raises other 5-2% and he is not that unusual! @4/8.

But here's my point: It's hard to put players on ranges at low limits, they literally can have anything

Not really. Most 4/8 fish that are limping over 90% of their hands play horribly after flop! They play fit or fold. and you should have a good idea where they are by turn. And the 2+2 players (people who are trying to learn to play right) are easily readable (due to some degree to the idiotic advice they get here), they raise a standard tight range, and for most part play fit or fold after flop and tend to have mubsy tendencies, prob becuz they've been told in here that all 4/8 players are horrible, which isn't true, so well timed bluff's will rob these people blind! Then there are the people who know how to play, luckily not many play 4/8 lol. Now, they are hard to read.