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Micro-Small Stakes Limit Discussions about micro-small stakes Texas Hold'em (all stakes up to around 15/30)

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Old 09-13-2017, 01:35 AM   #51
Captain R
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

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You realize that based on your RIO argument, when it's 6 limpers to us in the BB and we have Q5o, we should fold preflop.
FMP.
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Old 09-13-2017, 02:37 AM   #52
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

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13:1 in the SB is not infinite odds, but it is VERY high odds.

In my view you have ~10.7% preflop. But dont forget that you'll often have to fold your hand on the flop that wiil be the winner on the river. Situation like Q5 on K-10-5(-5-x) or 10-8-2(-Q-x) etc. (maybe you would call the first one, i dont know,it looks like there's no unprofitable call for you).
Actually your equity is around 7-8%
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Old 09-13-2017, 03:50 AM   #53
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

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In my view you have ~10.7% preflop. But dont forget that you'll often have to fold your hand on the flop that wiil be the winner on the river. Situation like Q5 on K-10-5(-5-x) or 10-8-2(-Q-x) etc. (maybe you would call the first one, i dont know,it looks like there's no unprofitable call for you).

Actually your equity is around 7-8%

So which is it?

7% would justify a fold preflop.

8% is a call (you need 12.5 - 1, and you're getting 13 - 1).

10.7%, if you're not calling it's a clear mistake.

And I think most people would be inclined to call on the flop if they have bottom pair and are getting 14 - 1 (in the case of a KT5 flop).

Part of the big frustration a lot of players have at these stakes is "these people call with anything and suck out on me!" But when the pot is very large relative to the bet, like it is here, they are quite often correct to call you.

Is Q5o a junk hand that you don't want to play out of position? Yes, absolutely.

But that doesn't mean you should always fold it.
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:21 AM   #54
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

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7% would justify a fold preflop.

8% is a call (you need 12.5 - 1, and you're getting 13 - 1).

10.7%, if you're not calling it's a clear mistake.
That's not really the way this works. Those odds are really only accurate if you're going to be all in with your call. Some hands are much more able to capture their entire all in equity than others. Q5o is one of the ones that will have a very tough time getting all its equity.
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:35 AM   #55
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

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That's not really the way this works. Those odds are really only accurate if you're going to be all in with your call. Some hands are much more able to capture their entire all in equity than others. Q5o is one of the ones that will have a very tough time getting all its equity.


I don't disagree...the point is that where you estimate that line to be matters a lot. The all in equity in his example is 10.7%. Whether you decide that you're realistically able to get 7% or 8% makes a difference.

My bigger point is just that 13-1 pot odds are mighty big odds to pass up, especially in games that tend towards passive play. In a tough game I'd fold Q5o pre in a heartbeat, but in a tough game I'd never be looking at an opportunity to simply complete the small blind after five limpers. 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?
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Old 09-13-2017, 09:50 AM   #56
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

The three random hands include big over pairs yes?
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Old 09-13-2017, 10:00 AM   #57
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

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My bigger point is just that 13-1 pot odds are mighty big odds to pass up, especially in games that tend towards passive play. In a tough game I'd fold Q5o pre in a heartbeat, but in a tough game I'd never be looking at an opportunity to simply complete the small blind after five limpers. 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?
this is not wrong. the overlay you're getting in large limped pots helps buffer against small mistakes you'll make in large pots oop with marginal holdings.

the larger point is that the overlay doesn't matter if the mistakes made post are big and turn marginal pf completes into huge -EV situations. how you play junk from the sb after completing is not the differentiating skill between good and great players. It's an opportunity to turn a hand that should have an expected value to you of ~0 and make it slightly positive.
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Old 09-13-2017, 10:52 AM   #58
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

In a game with small edges, being able to turn a ~0 hand into a slightly positive one is exactly what makes the difference between good and great players
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Old 09-13-2017, 11:31 AM   #59
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

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this is not wrong. the overlay you're getting in large limped pots helps buffer against small mistakes you'll make in large pots oop with marginal holdings.



the larger point is that the overlay doesn't matter if the mistakes made post are big and turn marginal pf completes into huge -EV situations. how you play junk from the sb after completing is not the differentiating skill between good and great players. It's an opportunity to turn a hand that should have an expected value to you of ~0 and make it slightly positive.


I STRONGLY agree that how you play this post flop is vastly more important than whether you choose to complete the small blind or not.

I think this thread kind of went off into a discussion of when it's proper to complete and when you should just fold, which is of much less value to the OP than discussion of how the other streets were played. (And yes, I had a role in that, so I'm also criticizing myself. 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?).

So perhaps the biggest takeaway-although you have the odds to see the flop, you have to be very careful playing mediocre holdings out of position. It's easy to get carried away...you need solid value to continue in the hand, and with so many players in the pot you really need a monster to justify playing very aggressively.

If you really feel uncomfortable playing this oop, then folding pre is maybe the best course (a small error that may keep you from making a larger one), but in that case your time would be well spent in studying how to play in these situations.

Anyone can play well went they flop a monster. The ability to play well in very marginal situations is the biggest thing that separates ok players from excellent players. It's not easy and it's not cut and dried. That's where the discussions in this forum are the most helpful...and not for specific plays. You'll see good players disagree with each other-the value is in studying the various ways they approach the problem. Evaluating everyone else's thought processes forces YOU to think more deeply about the game, and the more you study and think critically away from the table, the better decisions you will make in the heat of the moment.

Best wishes to OP on the continual path of improvement!
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:15 PM   #60
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

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I think there are plenty players with higher winrates with me who have compulsive gambling disorders and impatience problems.
Have you considered developing a compulsive gambling disorder and being less patient as a way of improving your winrate?
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:20 PM   #61
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

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You realize that based on your RIO argument, when it's folded to us in the BB and we have Q5o, we should fold preflop. We have infinite odds in the BB, but due to RIO concerns, we are going to lose money postflop with Q5o, and we should fold.
lol. this is one of my favorite strategy posts ever
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Old 09-13-2017, 06:44 PM   #62
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

True story --

The first time I played poker, I played 2/4 at the Peppermill in Reno, after reading Lee Jones' book.

I got dealt Q5o in the BB and tried to fold thinking I was UTG, when the dealer reminded me I was in the BB and gave me my cards back. 4 limpers to me, I checked.

Flop: Q-Q-5
I bet, button raised, we go 7 bets.

Turn: 8
I bet/3!

River: K
I bet, and button pays me off showing Ace-high. I look at him quizzically and he says "I knew you had nothing because you tried to throw your hand away."

That's when I knew there was money to be made in poker.
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