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Old 08-27-2017, 10:17 AM   #1
C Put 6163
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4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

5 limpers to me ins SB w Qh5c. I complete. Solid BB checks option. (7sb)

Flop: 358 w/ 2 hearts + 1 club
Hero: check
BB: bets
3 calls
hero: raise
BB: 3bets
4 calls (9.5 BB)

Turn: 2d
Hero: check
BB: bet
2 folds
Hero and one other call (13.5bb)

River: Ad
Hero: check
BB: bets
Remaining player folds
Hero: calls.


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Old 08-27-2017, 10:19 AM   #2
Bob148
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

I'd check call the flop and reevaluate the turn.
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Old 08-27-2017, 10:50 AM   #3
20dragons
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

You describe BB as "solid". He checks his option, then leads out after one check into a 7 handed flop with 5 still to act behind him. If he's "solid", what kind of range do you put him on here?
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Old 08-27-2017, 11:37 AM   #4
C Put 6163
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 20dragons View Post
You describe BB as "solid". He checks his option, then leads out after one check into a 7 handed flop with 5 still to act behind him. If he's "solid", what kind of range do you put him on here?


BB leads w any set, any pair less than 99, OESD, FD, and maybe 2 little offsuit broadways. (Suited Broadways, big broadways (Ak, AQ), and 99+ she would have raised pre). The range narrows when she 3bets.


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Old 08-27-2017, 02:21 PM   #5
C Put 6163
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by C Put 6163 View Post
BB leads w any set, any pair less than 99, OESD, FD, and maybe 2 little offsuit broadways. (Suited Broadways, big broadways (Ak, AQ), and 99+ she would have raised pre). The range narrows when she 3bets.


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I left out 2 pair from BB's range



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Old 08-27-2017, 03:13 PM   #6
Aaron W.
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by C Put 6163 View Post
5 limpers to me ins SB w Qh5c. I complete. Solid BB checks option. (7sb)

Flop: 358 w/ 2 hearts + 1 club
Hero: check
BB: bets
3 calls
hero: raise
...
When a "solid BB" leads into a field, what do you think it means? And why do you think raising is the right play?

Edit: Didn't see your second post before posting

Quote:
BB leads w any set, any pair less than 99, OESD, FD, and maybe 2 little offsuit broadways. (Suited Broadways, big broadways (Ak, AQ), and 99+ she would have raised pre). The range narrows when she 3bets.
So the second question still applies: Why do you think raising is the right play?

I'll now add:

* Why would a "solid BB" be betting two little offsuit broadways? And why would this player be betting 22 (which is a pair less than 99)?
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Old 08-27-2017, 03:21 PM   #7
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

I fold preflop, but whatever.

Check-raising everyone on the flop with middle pair mediocre kicker just seems bizarre.

Can't imagine you're good often enough to call the river unless the "solid" BB has some history of 3 barrel bluffing you haven't mentioned.
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Old 08-27-2017, 03:49 PM   #8
C Put 6163
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
When a "solid BB" leads into a field, what do you think it means? And why do you think raising is the right play?

Edit: Didn't see your second post before posting



So the second question still applies: Why do you think raising is the right play?

I'll now add:

* Why would a "solid BB" be betting two little offsuit broadways? And why would this player be betting 22 (which is a pair less than 99)?


Without the Qh, I check fold the flop. With the backdoor FD, fold was not an option unless I check and it's raised back to me. Even then, I would have had to evaluate based on how many called the raise.

I weighed BB heavily toward draws or a pair. I thought a c/r had likelihood of getting others with overcards to fold. Before BB 3 bet, I planned on a semi-bluff lead OTT. In short, this seemed like a marginal hand that I needed to play aggressively or fold. I opted to play. If I were certain that was the right decision, I would not have posted the hand here


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Old 08-27-2017, 04:00 PM   #9
C Put 6163
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
I fold preflop, but whatever.

Check-raising everyone on the flop with middle pair mediocre kicker just seems bizarre.

Can't imagine you're good often enough to call the river unless the "solid" BB has some history of 3 barrel bluffing you haven't mentioned.


Q5o was definitely the bottom of my calling range.

River was a crying call for sure. I wondered about the wisdom of the call, but I was persuaded by the big pot and the possibility she had a lower pair or 55 w/ worse kicker or missed draw and a bluff.


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Old 08-27-2017, 04:21 PM   #10
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by C Put 6163 View Post
... I thought a c/r had likelihood of getting others with overcards to fold...
This thinking is wrong...if someone has already peeled for one bet, they are almost certainly going to call for one more in a pot that is now larger.

The only chance you had to fold people out was if the BB 3-bets, in which case you are likely very far behind. As it is, everyone still called for the 3-bet!
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Old 08-27-2017, 04:27 PM   #11
C Put 6163
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
This thinking is wrong...if someone has already peeled for one bet, they are almost certainly going to call for one more in a pot that is now larger.

The only chance you had to fold people out was if the BB 3-bets, in which case you are likely very far behind. As it is, everyone still called for the 3-bet!


I didn't think c/r was likely to get the others to fold OTF, but I did think c/r OTF followed by a lead OTT would get others to fold. I also wanted to make drawing hands pay the premium OTF.


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Old 08-27-2017, 07:33 PM   #12
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

That flop xr is a disaster. If I was BB, my range here basically consists of like A8+ for value and then a bunch of huge draws. Not the kind of range you want to be check raising with middle pair, and certainly don't want to bloat the pot.

As played, I still think you may beat some bricked heart combos like 97hh? I guess calling can't be that bad on the river. But you let this pot get way too big.
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Old 08-27-2017, 07:40 PM   #13
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
I fold preflop, but whatever.
I fold pre too for whatever it's worth. Q5s I call though. The only unsuited hands I'd complete with are two cards both at least a T, unsuited connectors at least 76o and unsuited one-gappers at least 86o.
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Old 08-27-2017, 07:54 PM   #14
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by C Put 6163 View Post
Without the Qh, I check fold the flop.
This should be a significant red flag to you. Hands don't go from check-fold to check-raise-the-whole-field on the basis of a weak backdoor draw.

Quote:
I weighed BB heavily toward draws or a pair. I thought a c/r had likelihood of getting others with overcards to fold.
What makes you think that this would fold the overcards?

Quote:
In short, this seemed like a marginal hand that I needed to play aggressively or fold.
It is rarely the case that you should play a marginal hand aggressively in a multi-way pot.

Quote:
If I were certain that was the right decision, I would not have posted the hand here
Even if you're certain, it's sometimes good to post hands. Being wrong gives you the chance to learn. In this hand, it looks like there are some fundamental strategic concepts in your head that need some fleshing out. Specifically, you should be thinking about the nature of relative position (position relative to the bettor) and how it impacts the value of various types of plays.

Check-raising a late position bettor is much different from check-raising an early position bettor. That position impacts the type of decisions that your opponents will be making, and thus changes the value of the play.
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Old 08-27-2017, 08:10 PM   #15
C Put 6163
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
This should be a significant red flag to you. Hands don't go from check-fold to check-raise-the-whole-field on the basis of a weak backdoor draw.



What makes you think that this would fold the overcards?



It is rarely the case that you should play a marginal hand aggressively in a multi-way pot.



Even if you're certain, it's sometimes good to post hands. Being wrong gives you the chance to learn. In this hand, it looks like there are some fundamental strategic concepts in your head that need some fleshing out. Specifically, you should be thinking about the nature of relative position (position relative to the bettor) and how it impacts the value of various types of plays.

Check-raising a late position bettor is much different from check-raising an early position bettor. That position impacts the type of decisions that your opponents will be making, and thus changes the value of the play.


Very helpful. I especially appreciate the point about relative position and c/r an EP vs LP bettor.


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Old 08-27-2017, 08:14 PM   #16
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by C Put 6163 View Post
I didn't think c/r was likely to get the others to fold OTF, but I did think c/r OTF followed by a lead OTT would get others to fold. I also wanted to make drawing hands pay the premium OTF.


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The problem (which a lot of players miss in many situations) is that your hand is probably the drawing hand, and other players should be wanting to make you pay the premium.
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Old 08-27-2017, 11:19 PM   #17
holmfries
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

Fold PF and fold the river for sure.
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Old 08-29-2017, 04:45 AM   #18
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

Xr this flop is borderline spew, you need very specific reasoning to justify it

Leading the flop has merit as 2nd pair might be good and its cheap even when we are behind
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Old 08-29-2017, 09:03 AM   #19
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

this is a textbook case for the adage ..sometimes the most profitable hands are the ones you are not in
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Old 08-29-2017, 10:43 AM   #20
Aaron W.
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

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Originally Posted by colt45ss View Post
this is a textbook case for the adage ..sometimes the most profitable hands are the ones you are not in
Except when it's not.
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Old 09-02-2017, 05:02 AM   #21
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

is folding pre nitty? the debate continues..
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Old 09-02-2017, 07:59 PM   #22
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

I fold it preflop. Am I nitty?
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Old 09-02-2017, 09:26 PM   #23
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

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Originally Posted by HUMBLE. View Post
is folding pre nitty? the debate continues..
If you know for a fact the bb never raises, calling here could be ok, depending on stuff. You might get enough value from flopping gin to make it worth it. A raise is such a disaster though..
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Old 09-03-2017, 03:35 AM   #24
Aaron W.
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

With 5 limpers and assuming a .5 small blind, you're getting 13:1. If you flop a top pair of queens and manage to not put in more than one bet per street, I would not be surprised at all if you were fairly comfortably +EV.
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Old 09-08-2017, 02:22 PM   #25
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Re: 4/8 Q5o in SB how'd I do?

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I fold it preflop. Am I nitty?
No. You are right.

And I actually think this is a fairly big deal. IDEALLY you are only picking up a tiny bit of EV by playing this hand.

And the chances of not playing this hand ideally out of position are quite high. I would bet for the VAST majority of players, this hand is -EV.
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