I fold this pre-flop too.

If I had called pre-flop, I would check call the flop and fold this turn given your read that the BB was solid. I would only call down someone with a history of bluffing.

I complete PF (and would complete with virtually ATC here . . . maybe not stuff like 83o, 92o, etc.).

Postflop is an abortion. I'd c/c flop (especially closing the action) and, as played, would fold this turn. On the river . . . well, I just know I would never get to the river this way, and as played c/c is by far the worst option.

id never consider folding pre

Neither would I. In fact I think it's a clear complete in a no limit game, which if true would indicate that playing this hand in a limit game is correct.

Nor I. Folding preflop when you're getting immediate odds of 13-1 would be a major leak. I don't fold anything in that spot.

Whether preflop should be a call or fold, I'm guessing the other one would only be the fourth worst mistake.

Raising the flop after 3 callers is really bad. Calling the turn is really optimistic. And calling the river is baffling.

This is exactly how you want your opponents to play - putting a lot of action with weak hands and then calling down hopeless hands.

I'd have thought the opposite.

I recommend a fold pre bec it's 4-8 where players limp w/ 10-10+ all of the time and being in the SB w/ a weak hand can lead to just what OP is posting. I'd also take it easy on OP who's playing low limit and likely still learning.

whether pf is marginal correct or marginal wrong doesn't matter, op took 2nd pair meh kicker and bloated the pot on the flop. this actual line is horrendus

With Q5o we should be looking to flop 2pair+ and ready to play very carefully (read: mostly fold) when we don't

There is no way this is a major leak.

If there's a leak at all in this situation, I'm almost sure it's an overconfidence/indiscipline leak of being unable to fold crap hands with big RIO's in terrible position where you win less when you are good and lose more where you aren't.

And even then, it's a very small leak, because this is going to be close to 0EV either way.

It's really not that hard to play Q5o in the SB getting 13:1, this isn't rocket science. Even if you just followed the following strategy, you would win money.

Bet TP+, nut flush draws, and open-enders (except 876). C/c any pair otherwise or gutshots for one bet.

Folding preflop is absurd. Rather than assume you know what the correct strategy is and tell everyone else they have leaks, it makes more sense to listen to players who have a higher win rate than you and try to learn from them and figure out why they disagree.

Based on this thread's OP, it's hard for some people.

Salad!

Ok, the abuse stings a little. And thanks to Howard Beale for understanding. All that said, even for those who are flaming me for bad play, thanks. Nobody has done it without offering constructive criticism. I've already learned a TON about my play from this single thread. Thanks again to everyone.


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I actually wasn't meaning to pile on the abuse. Just was making a point that Q5o isn't that easy to play from the SB. I'm a pro and I fold it preflop without thinking twice about it. Good luck.

Sweet ****ing Jesus

Step 1: block rob before he poisons you
Step 2: read this
Step 3 read it a couple more times
Step 4 profit

Really sorry if anything I said was mean.

We were all in your shoes once. We learned some tough lessons the tough way, learned some tough lessons the easy way, and we try not to make the same mistakes again.

Someone needs to revive one of the threads where everyone posts yhe stupidest things they've ever done.

It has to do with the average price of the preflop investment. In a limit game with a bunch of limpers? You're paying somewhere between 0.5 small bets and 1.5 small bets to see the flop, depending on how often the big blind raises.

In a no limit game? The average price of the preflop investment is much higher because the big blind can make it however much he or she wants. So you'll be forced to fold your equity more often; the result is a tighter small blind completing range.

I think there are plenty players with higher winrates with me who have compulsive gambling disorders and impatience problems.

There I said it. It comes out sometimes in this forum. "Raising is more fun!" Really? That's not a reason to raise.

You haven't done any modeling of whether this is actually +EV. You just haven't. You assume it is, but you haven't.

The reality is that Q5 makes a lot of top pairs that are no good in a 7 way pot. And every single one of them is going to cost of lots of money out of position. (This is why in the other thread, I mentioned I DO complete any two cards in a 3 or 4 way pot with a 3 chip./2 chip blind structure. Because guess what? Even though the pot odds are exactly the same, the play is higher EV when you don't make so many pairs that are no good because you have fewer opponents.)

I will totally defer to players better than me who post actual math as to why a play is superior. I'm not going to defer to someone's assumption that "I'm a great player so I will find a way to not have it cost me when my Q5 offsuit is up against 7 players and one of them limped QT."

Sorry, RIO's are a real thing. And not only is it good on it's own merits to fold this, but folding something like this proves you CAN fold it, which is also good. It shows a player can sublimate her own desires to get in the mix with bad players in a situation where she is out of position.

Maybe he has a prob bet whether he can get you banned

You, in particular, have provided me with so much valuable insight to the game that if I am feeling insulted by anything you have said, it really is ME and not you. Again, thanks for sharing so much time and poker wisdom.

No pain. No gain.

For me, I understand tha RIO's are a real thing. I can read about it in the books and understand the concept. As this hand shows, however, I have had great difficulty recognizing it in game time and acting correctly in light of it. This thread, however, has helped me get better at it already.

And you have? How's this for math. Let's assume villains limp all KQ->Q9, which comes out to 40 combos. Yes, FORTY COMBOS. That's out of hundreds/thousands of hands they can have.

Pot is 6.75 BB, so assuming we make top pair of Q and lose 3BB when we are dominated, we need to win < 33% of the time when we make top pair of Qs. Are we dominated over 2/3 of the time when we make top pair and would win otherwise (TP would hold up)? I don't know, but I think I have most of the math there and it should be easy to plug in ranges and combos. But if I had to guess, seems unlikely.

Actual effective odds are even better, because when we have TP we generally will win more money post flop than we lose due to equity %, but I'm ignoring that for now.

Seems reasonable that when we make top pair of Q we are dominated less than 2/3 of the time.

It has nothing to do with discipline or whatever, I don't know why you bring that up in EVERY SINGLE strategy thread. It's whether a hand is profitable or not.

You realize that based on your RIO argument, when it's folded to us in the BB and we have Q5o, we should fold preflop. We have infinite odds in the BB, but due to RIO concerns, we are going to lose money postflop with Q5o, and we should fold.

13:1 in the SB is not infinite odds, but it is VERY high odds. I assume you also don't c/f Q5o in the BB when you flop a Q. Because, like, you probably shoud. According to you.