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4/8 live: playing against scared opponents 4/8 live: playing against scared opponents

10-08-2010 , 02:06 AM
4/8 at Wynn (heard they've got promotions now so tried it out).
EP and MP- tight, passive, timid; SB- very loose, passive, timid.
8 players, EP raises, MP cold-calls, SB calls, Hero calls from BB with K6.
Flop (4 players, 8 small bets): 356r no diamond
SB checks, Hero checks, EP checks, MP checks.
Turn (4 players, 4 big bets): 5
SB checks, Hero bets, EP folds, MP calls, SB folds.
River (2 players, 6 big bets): 5
Hero bets, planning to call if raised.
MP actually called, Hero showed 5's full of 6's, MP said: "no good!" and showed pocket J's for a better full-house.
my questions:
1. Should I have bet the flop? (worried it would put me in a weird spot when I get called by what may look like overcards but can turn out to be a big overpair in the hands of a scared player. If I do bet and get called in a couple of spots, how do I proceed on the turn?)
2. What should I take from this hand? How do I adjust my play to Villian's unorthodox game in future hands?
3. Is this game profitable? Maybe the least aggressive game i've played in a long time, but most of the players are tight (rocks?). Table change?
Thanks in advance
4/8 live: playing against scared opponents Quote
10-08-2010 , 02:26 AM
I am not sure I even like the preflop call against the described EP and MP villains. The combination of their ranges has you probably drawing really thin, even getting 7-1.

Don't show the results.

I imagine the game is profitable because you didn't say who was in the other seats, and I am assuming they are not very good.
4/8 live: playing against scared opponents Quote
10-08-2010 , 02:52 AM
ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
Hero Kd6d17.75% 104,2805,262
EP 5%35.15% 204,25314,382
MP 8%28.12% 161,95814,601
SB 30%18.98% 109,34110,138
I'm not really sure how much pot equity am I looking for (25% would be break even pot equity, so against the given ranges my pot equity is only 71% of break even pot equity). I know I'm looking for a playable hand, preferably suited. I think K6s (ranked 24/100), besides being suited, is also playable (I would fold 72s for instance). I'm not gonna get stuck if I flop a pair of kings and face substantial action indicating better hands.
I really think the preflop call was O.K, but I wouldn't mind more opinions on my preflop call.
4/8 live: playing against scared opponents Quote
10-08-2010 , 03:28 AM
You might prefer Pokerstove as a tool.

Closing the action preflop in this spot I would call with any 2 suited cards. K6s is fine.
4/8 live: playing against scared opponents Quote
10-08-2010 , 07:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by str8 or better
Hero K6|17.75%
your putting in 1bet into a 7bet pot, thats only 14% invested while u have 17% equity. its profitable
4/8 live: playing against scared opponents Quote
10-08-2010 , 09:57 AM
7-1 and i'm good to go with almost any two suited, especially one that has top pair potential.

As for the rest of the hand, I like it.

With regard to the game at the Wynn, I avoid it, even with this latest sh*tty promo, imo its one of the toughest 4/8 games I have ever experienced and I have a good sample in that game. Basically when the room died, the game just got incredibly tough. Very rarely will you find anybody in it willing to spew. Its basically one table of exploitable regs with a couple of tourists mixed in. Im not saying it cant be beat, just that there are easier pickings to be found !!
4/8 live: playing against scared opponents Quote
10-08-2010 , 11:47 AM
c/f the river against superscarednit, not close.

he never calls worse. good news is though is he'll usually check anything cept quads so its not like you'll have a tough decision.
4/8 live: playing against scared opponents Quote
10-08-2010 , 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KitCloudkicker
c/f the river against superscarednit, not close.

he never calls worse. good news is though is he'll usually check anything cept quads so its not like you'll have a tough decision.
sounds like an extreme adjustment, but it's always good to adjust. More opinions on this one?
4/8 live: playing against scared opponents Quote
10-08-2010 , 05:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleMint
7-1 and i'm good to go with almost any two suited, especially one that has top pair potential.

As for the rest of the hand, I like it.

With regard to the game at the Wynn, I avoid it, even with this latest sh*tty promo, imo its one of the toughest 4/8 games I have ever experienced and I have a good sample in that game. Basically when the room died, the game just got incredibly tough. Very rarely will you find anybody in it willing to spew. Its basically one table of exploitable regs with a couple of tourists mixed in. Im not saying it cant be beat, just that there are easier pickings to be found !!
Would you mind sharing where those softer games are? Obviously you don't have to, just curious though.
4/8 live: playing against scared opponents Quote
10-08-2010 , 08:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by element90210
Would you mind sharing where those softer games are? Obviously you don't have to, just curious though.
Venetian (str8s home room iirc)
Any station casino
Bellagio
Suncoast
There's a few more also
4/8 live: playing against scared opponents Quote
10-08-2010 , 09:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleMint
Venetian (str8s home room iirc)
Only for O8 references. LHE games are so bad, filled with tight and solid regulars. Same faces again and again. Any small edge is neutralized by the rake. Terrible, terrible games. Really surprised you suggest playing LHE there.
4/8 live: playing against scared opponents Quote
10-08-2010 , 09:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleMint
Venetian (str8s home room iirc)
Any station casino
Bellagio
Suncoast
There's a few more also
I can only vouch for the Bellagio game. I agree on that. I played a funky mix at the Aria that was loaded with good players on my last visit.
4/8 live: playing against scared opponents Quote
10-08-2010 , 09:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by element90210
I can only vouch for the Bellagio game. I agree on that. I played a funky mix at the Aria that was loaded with good players on my last visit.
Bellagio and Aria, I agree.
4/8 live: playing against scared opponents Quote
10-08-2010 , 11:46 PM
Aria was my home room during the summer and probably will be again now that I'm back until the holidays. It is an inconsistent 4/8 game because it only is guaranteed during the weekend. 5 days a week is the max, more like 3 or 4 days on average. That said, it can be a great game because iirc, there were only 5 or so familiar faces (seriously, I played there the most) and of those, only 2 were decent. So it's all tourists and it's basically what batch you get. A weekend can get 2 full tables with a wait list...absolutely great games.

Bellagio will have a game running more often and can be just as good.

Venetian is beatable...but I have sat there on 3 occasions where it has been a nit fold fest for hours. That has only happened to me once at Bellagio and 0 times at Aria.
4/8 live: playing against scared opponents Quote
10-09-2010 , 12:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KMX
Aria was my home room during the summer and probably will be again now that I'm back until the holidays. It is an inconsistent 4/8 game because it only is guaranteed during the weekend. 5 days a week is the max, more like 3 or 4 days on average. That said, it can be a great game because iirc, there were only 5 or so familiar faces (seriously, I played there the most) and of those, only 2 were decent. So it's all tourists and it's basically what batch you get. A weekend can get 2 full tables with a wait list...absolutely great games.

Bellagio will have a game running more often and can be just as good.

Venetian is beatable...but I have sat there on 3 occasions where it has been a nit fold fest for hours. That has only happened to me once at Bellagio and 0 times at Aria.
Hm, I would assume the 4/8 mix is even more sporadic. I enjoyed it while I was in it. Tough group of proclaimed "regs" though.
4/8 live: playing against scared opponents Quote
10-09-2010 , 12:14 AM
The 4/8 mix game only occurred because of the WSOP. Harrah's hires a company that employs traveling dealers. Every year, the dealers choose a different Vegas poker room to be their home room during the WSOP and they play a 4/8 mix game every night after work. This year, it was Aria. Other than that, the Aria dealers themselves play an afternoon mix game like once a week. So I wouldn't be surprised if the mix game is now dead.
4/8 live: playing against scared opponents Quote
10-09-2010 , 12:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KMX
The 4/8 mix game only occurred because of the WSOP. Harrah's hires a company that employs traveling dealers. Every year, the dealers choose a different Vegas poker room to be their home room during the WSOP and they play a 4/8 mix game every night after work. This year, it was Aria. Other than that, the Aria dealers themselves play an afternoon mix game like once a week. So I wouldn't be surprised if the mix game is now dead.
I was there before the series so I must have just been there on that day luckily. Well that is unfortunate being that I find the mix a lot more exciting with a lot of exploitable spots in it too.
4/8 live: playing against scared opponents Quote
10-10-2010 , 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by str8 or better
Only for O8 references. LHE games are so bad, filled with tight and solid regulars. Same faces again and again. Any small edge is neutralized by the rake. Terrible, terrible games. Really surprised you suggest playing LHE there.
Don't know if this is a level or what. I have played 4/8, 8/16, and 15/30 at the Venetian and all were great games. The 8/16 games had many regulars, but that does not imply the regulars were good. I haven't played the 4/8 enough to know if the players were regulars or not, but they were filled with loose, passive players, with the occasional maniac who liked to play and raise nearly every hand. Games don't get much better.
4/8 live: playing against scared opponents Quote
10-10-2010 , 04:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob
Don't know if this is a level or what.
I'm afraid not. Since the end of the series and until now, the games have been terrible. 3-4 players (who generally know what they're doing) to a flop on average, with rake the size of a full small bet render the game unprofitable.
Quote:
I have played 4/8, 8/16, and 15/30 at the Venetian and all were great games. The 8/16 games had many regulars, but that does not imply the regulars were good.
8/16 is considered soft. Don't remember the last time 15/30 was running. Anyway, I was talking about 4/8.
Quote:
I haven't played the 4/8 enough to know if the players were regulars or not, but they were filled with loose, passive players, with the occasional maniac who liked to play and raise nearly every hand. Games don't get much better.
Maybe you didn't play recently, maybe you did but were lucky enough to sit at a good game. Anyway, what you describe does not reflect the common action there the past 2 months or so. If you don't believe me, believe the others who posted here about the games at the V being bad.
4/8 live: playing against scared opponents Quote
10-10-2010 , 07:18 PM
Well, you have certainly been there more recently than me, but I still find it hard to believe that the 4/8 would be a tough game in any room, especially in a room where the 8/16 is soft. Also seems unlikely that the games would have changed significantly in just a few months. And I haven't seen anyone else posting on 2+2 about any of the games at the Venetian being bad lately. Seems more likely that you have just happened to be seated at a few bad tables.

The rake certainly is a bigger factor at a 4/8 game than and 8/16 game though. Sounds like anyone who goes should just be playing the 8/16 instead.
4/8 live: playing against scared opponents Quote

      
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