$4/$8 full ring live,

3 limpers in front of me, I'm 1 from the cutoff and raise preflop with A K . Cutoff and Button fold. Blinds and 3 limpers all call.

Flop comes A53 Small blind donkbets into me, everyone calls to me and I raise to $8. Small blind calls and everyone folds. Turn is the 9 and the SB bets into me again.

I have played with the SB before, he is loose, sometimes aggressive, sometimes spewy. I think if he had a straight or a set, he would check-raise me on the flop or turn, but I could be wrong. I think he is betting into me on these two streets for possibly three reasons: 1) he doesn't like when players play back at him and is hoping I just call against his weak ace or 2nd pair. 2) he thinks I've completely missed 3) valuebetting 2 pair into me.

I just don't hardly ever get bet into that way on two streets in a row at midstakes live and was a little lost. It started to feel like a marginal spot whether to raise or call the turn, but maybe it's an obvious answer to my question below.


Do I raise or call the turn?

I think he has top pair and doesn't know what to do with it. However, the 9 hits his range. I'll answer your question with a question.

What do you plan to do if you raise and get 3 bet?

i think this is a calldown unless you improve on the river. the pot is reasonably large (10.5 BB), you are closing the action, and you have a good but not great hand. this line screams 2 pair, and you will have to pay 4 bets to get to showdown if he 3!'s the turn, so just get to showdown cheap and see what happens.

4-8 isn't quite midstakes

But onto something of value:

Your read on SB says it... raise. We have TPTK against a spewy player. Likely fold if he 3!

An alternative line would be to call Turn and Raise/Fold River. This may net us 1BB over previous line if he would have folded Turn to a raise. If we are ahead and he calls us the result is the same.

He could too easily have an A with a draw (2 or A2,A4) so I am raising somewhere... and it is probably best if it is the turn.

Do what I do--put him on 76 and raise!

Seriously, this is such a strange line that it's tough to consider without being there. But with your read I'd go ahead and raise. You don't necessarily have to bet the river if he checks to you.

Sounds like A9 makes the most sense. The right line should be to raise and fold to a re-raise, but I would probaly wimp out and call then call or bet the river if checker to.
Really is read dependent here. I could think of a lot of players I would raise here and a few I where I would muck.

If he'll 3-bet two pair, raising and folding to 3 is very, very bad.

Worst line is raising and folding to a 3 bet since you have plenty of outs to call against other two pairs.

I think I probably just call down his turn raise and see what he donks like this. Make a note and adjust accordingly.

Generally, I call this one down, but often I find tricky players who will push back on the flop AND turn against preflop raisers when they think you are c-betting a whiffed board. And yeah, it's a weird line. It's also entirely plausible that the 9 was good for him. If you've been playing tight and showing down the goods your hand probably is behind on the turn, but if this guy is spewy, likes to take shots, and your image is a little loosey goosey ...

Based on your read I would call down. I wouldn't want to face a 3-bet in this instance.

He is representing at least an Ace and possibly two pair. You have as many as 9 outs to draw on the river if he has A3 and 6 outs if he has A5. Additionally, you have him thoroughly dominated if he is spewing or overplaying Ax.

The pot is big and you have some possibility to win even if behind.

Thanks for all the replies and taking the time and yes Beakwetter, $4/$8 is not midstakes, my bad

I think if I raise the turn and get 3 bet, I probably just crying call the rest of the way with some outs left to hit. Although based on my partial read calling the turn and raising the river sounds ok too and then folding to a 3 bet.

I know the results should be irrelative to the question, but let me know if you want the results to this hand. Happy Early Thanksgiving!

Be careful about condensing people's ranges such that your more than likely beat and are stuck with thin (or -EV) crying calls. You especially don't want a situation where you're 75% ahead when they put their money in, then you raise, and you're about 0% to be a favorite if they call. There is no shame in letting someone bet your hand for you; this is very much the case when they're not calling more without beating you. The important thing about value raising is that you're a favorite when called; otherwise, you're semibluffing with the best hand. Make sure she's not raising when ahead and folding when behind.

Doug

Do you ever check a flop in position when you miss after a preflop raise?

Flop donk bets like this usually mean top pair or two pair. Sets or straights would probably wait for the turn to raise or check raise. The turn donk could mean the turn card improved this hand (A9?), or it could mean he still thinks he is ahead, even though he did not 3 bet the flop. I would usually just call down here.

he has Adxd. take his ass to valuetown.

When he bets out that 2nd time, I'd go into call down mode. OP, your know your Villian in a way that none of us here does; you've played him. It sounds like you think your Villian has you pegged with your basic premium TPGK hand. Now we need to get into his head. At this distance, let's ask some questions. Will this guy make plays just to make plays, or is it all about the $? Is your history with him such that he just wants to beat you at showdown, even if he gives up a bet or two?

The A9 view makes the most sense to me. He bets out the flop with an Ace decent kicker to test your PF raise as maybe a PP or KQ. When you raise, he can now read your hand. 9 on the turn and he bets out again. He knows you. He is saying "I don't care if you raise me back." He knows you are not folding. So the odds are that you are behind and could even be drawing dead. Most likely you are facing two pairs, but here pairing the board may not help you. Hitting the 3 or 5 still leaves you behind. The other board pairs give your opponent the FH if he has A9. If he has a set or the str8, you are already dead. So absent the goofy factor, (how OFTEN does he play goofy? How often does he play GOOFY against YOU?!) you really don't have that many outs. You have no clean outs and the Kings are your best shot.

It's call down time at best and I really don't think you could be faulted for folding here h/u if your read says he has A9 or better. His 2nd donk bet appropriately triggered your what's up radar. That makes this a good hand to pick apart.

Yeah, and probably call down a 3-bet since he can be spewy at times. I hate raising the turn because I don't know what to do when 3-bet a lot of the time, but here I think we grit our teeth and call down.

and fwiw i know very few players who would donk A9 on this turn rather than CR it, and they're all extremely passive.

Maybe I'm way too passive here, but absent a good read I think I just start calling down once donked into again. We raised preflop, raised a flop containing the scariest card in the deck on a fairly drawless board, and yet we get donked into again on the turn? I'm thinking this is much more likely to be a better hand than ours than it is something like pair + draw.

The difficulty I have is what to do if I improve on the river (either hitting another A, pairing my kicker or having the board pair). Is this the time for a raise/fold on the river?

GhasyettoimplementraisefoldG

I guess this is read dependent, but there are many at my regular 4/8 table who think it impolite to check/raise, plus MUBSy enough to think we may have AA, plus bet/call then lead their sets.