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Micro-Small Stakes Limit Discussions about micro-small stakes Texas Hold'em (all stakes up to around 15/30)

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Old 08-24-2017, 09:49 AM   #1
Muck_McDermott
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3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

KdTc in the BB. 3 early limpers, btn raises, I call, as do the limpers. 6 to the flop

Kc8c4d (6BB)

Check to btn who leads, I call, EP calls, 3 to the turn

10s (7.5BB)

Best move here?


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Old 08-24-2017, 10:29 AM   #2
jdr0317
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

You should've check raised the flop. You're value owning yourself sometimes, but getting this hand HU is important (or making 8x hands, gutters and club draws continue for 2 bets instead of 1).

As played you should be check raising the turn.
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Old 08-24-2017, 01:54 PM   #3
20dragons
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

I agree with check raise of flop...there are three players to act after you, and that's your best chance to get them out.

As played, I would bet out on the turn. It's now a 3 way pot, and you have top two, which is a terrific hand under the circumstances, but certainly vulnerable. Don't give flush draws a free card. Don't give AK or AA a free shot at catching the river against you. You are already ahead of all other likely hands. If btn has exactly KK or TT, well, that's poker.

Of course, if you know btn well and know he's likely to bet a lot if worse hands here, you can go for a check raise on the turn, but against an unknown I'd bet- a lot of 3/6 players will c-bet the flop in hopes of getting a free look at the river.
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Old 08-24-2017, 06:11 PM   #4
Montrealcorp
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

C/r flop
Has played you need to lead the turn , multiway , lot of draws .
Freecard is too dangerous .
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Old 08-24-2017, 06:24 PM   #5
Muck_McDermott
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

I called the flop in order to get more value out of a c/r on the turn assuming no draw completes. I think a flop c/r gets 1.5 more BB in the pot, then one, maybe two callers when I lead out on the turn. If I c/r the turn, that's 6 more BB going to the river assuming the EP continues drawing for his flush, which most players in this particular game will do regardless of odds/equity. If he doesn't call, it's more equity and 4 more BB to the river. This was my thinking at the time. I'm new here and don't have much experience discussing these spots, so looking forward to feedback and contrasting opinions


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Old 08-24-2017, 06:41 PM   #6
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

EP has a flush draw?
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Old 08-24-2017, 07:01 PM   #7
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muck_McDermott View Post
I called the flop in order to get more value out of a c/r on the turn assuming no draw completes. I think a flop c/r gets 1.5 more BB in the pot, then one, maybe two callers when I lead out on the turn. If I c/r the turn, that's 6 more BB going to the river assuming the EP continues drawing for his flush, which most players in this particular game will do regardless of odds/equity. If he doesn't call, it's more equity and 4 more BB to the river. This was my thinking at the time. I'm new here and don't have much experience discussing these spots, so looking forward to feedback and contrasting opinions


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Calling flop to CR turn isn't a good line with KT on this board. Too likely you'll value own yourself when behind. And when ahead the turn will sometimes check around.
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Old 08-24-2017, 07:03 PM   #8
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

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Originally Posted by bipolarbearclaw View Post
Calling flop to CR turn isn't a good line with KT on this board. Too likely you'll value own yourself.


I should've clarified: call if unimproved, c/r kings and tens


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Old 08-24-2017, 11:51 PM   #9
Aaron W.
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muck_McDermott View Post
I called the flop in order to get more value out of a c/r on the turn assuming no draw completes. I think a flop c/r gets 1.5 more BB in the pot, then one, maybe two callers when I lead out on the turn. If I c/r the turn, that's 6 more BB going to the river assuming the EP continues drawing for his flush, which most players in this particular game will do regardless of odds/equity. If he doesn't call, it's more equity and 4 more BB to the river. This was my thinking at the time. I'm new here and don't have much experience discussing these spots, so looking forward to feedback and contrasting opinions
Your hand isn't strong enough for that. You are reasonably likely to have the best hand now, and the pot is big. You want players to fold their equity so that you can have more of it. Also, notice that check-calling here makes it very profitable for any pair to chase to beat you. That's not a situation you want in multiway pots in limit hold'em.
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Old 08-24-2017, 11:54 PM   #10
Aaron W.
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muck_McDermott View Post
I should've clarified: call if unimproved, c/r kings and tens
This is not consistent with your previous statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by you
I called the flop in order to get more value out of a c/r on the turn assuming no draw completes.
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Old 08-25-2017, 12:26 AM   #11
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

Yeah Aaron, if you read everything you quoted, you'd see that he already called himself out for that.
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Old 08-25-2017, 01:51 AM   #12
Aaron W.
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

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Yeah Aaron, if you read everything you quoted, you'd see that he already called himself out for that.
He called himself out for a "clarification" when it's actually completely different from what was said before.

If you read the first post in full, it sounds nothing like a more tentative "I'm just check-calling unless I improve" and more like an aggressive "How do I maximize my value? Can I get 6 bets in on the turn?"

Especially for players who are somewhat new, this type of re-defining the strategy is a common fundamental error. It's critically important to have clarity on the reasons we make the decisions we do, and this type of slipperiness leads nowhere healthy. We have to face up to our logic truthfully, otherwise there's not much chance for improvement.

(It's okay to be wrong. Discovering we're wrong gives us chances to get better. That opportunity is lost if the narrative is changed mid-stream.)
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Old 08-25-2017, 05:16 AM   #13
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

Really good chance I'm about to make a fool of myself but is the PF call good here? I know it's a BN raise but it was after three limpers which tends to make it more legit than a straight BN steal. By calling the raise we're playing a bloated pot oop MW with a marginal hand and we'll never be comfortable even if we make TP. Then there's the issue of RIO.

Thoughts?
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Old 08-25-2017, 11:05 AM   #14
Aaron W.
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

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Really good chance I'm about to make a fool of myself but is the PF call good here? I know it's a BN raise but it was after three limpers which tends to make it more legit than a straight BN steal. By calling the raise we're playing a bloated pot oop MW with a marginal hand and we'll never be comfortable even if we make TP. Then there's the issue of RIO.

Thoughts?
1) Not comfortable is not the same as not profitable. If you only played hands where you were comfortably profitable you would be passing on all the spots that were marginally profitable, and there are a whole lot more of those than completely profitable spots.

2) That being said, the pot size matters and this isn't marginal. You can't be passing on too many spots preflop getting an expected 11:1. The overlay is just too good.

3) You might lose sometimes. That's okay. Players tend to remember the times that they ran into AK and got taken to value town. But they don't remember the times that they check-raised the flop and got called down by QQ. (And we often don't remember the times we suck out, which happens something like 10% of the time...)
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Old 08-25-2017, 05:52 PM   #15
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

Preflop call is totally standard and I'd need a really good read to do anything but call there.

Flop check raise is mandatory imo; calling isn't an option.
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Old 08-25-2017, 06:32 PM   #16
DTLB
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
1) Not comfortable is not the same as not profitable. If you only played hands where you were comfortably profitable you would be passing on all the spots that were marginally profitable, and there are a whole lot more of those than completely profitable spots.

2) That being said, the pot size matters and this isn't marginal. You can't be passing on too many spots preflop getting an expected 11:1. The overlay is just too good.

3) You might lose sometimes. That's okay. Players tend to remember the times that they ran into AK and got taken to value town. But they don't remember the times that they check-raised the flop and got called down by QQ. (And we often don't remember the times we suck out, which happens something like 10% of the time...)
Got it. Thanks for that. Still working on my blind defense (among many other areas of my game lol).
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Old 08-25-2017, 07:10 PM   #17
Aaron W.
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

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Got it. Thanks for that. Still working on my blind defense (among many other areas of my game lol).
Keep at it. It's an amazingly interesting and intricate game, which is why it's not easy.
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Old 09-02-2017, 05:12 AM   #18
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

+2 c/r flop
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Old 09-02-2017, 07:19 PM   #19
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

I agree with everyone about not check-calling this flop.

With a crowd of people after us and a somewhat coordinated board, is check-raising the flop really better than simply donking? It would be something of a disaster to let the flop check through.

If it were head-up between me and the button on this flop, I'd check-raise every time. But with the passengers along for the ride, BTN should have a wider range for checking behind, and we would like a bet to go in on the flop.

Preflop call is absolutely standard, of course.

ETA: Think about our own range. I would certainly donk/call, rather than checkraise, a hand like AXcc, because I want multiple players to put money in the pot with that hand. We need to balance our donked draws with donked value hands. We also would need to balance our value k/r's with draws or pure bluffs, but a k/r shuts passengers' money out of the pot rather than pricing it in.

Last edited by AlanBostick; 09-02-2017 at 07:27 PM. Reason: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know balance matters less in loose multiway pots
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Old 09-04-2017, 09:29 PM   #20
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

Donk the turn as played.
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Old 09-08-2017, 02:16 PM   #21
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
You should've check raised the flop. You're value owning yourself sometimes, but getting this hand HU is important (or making 8x hands, gutters and club draws continue for 2 bets instead of 1).

As played you should be check raising the turn.
/THREAD
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Old 09-08-2017, 02:19 PM   #22
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

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Originally Posted by AlanBostick View Post
With a crowd of people after us and a somewhat coordinated board, is check-raising the flop really better than simply donking? It would be something of a disaster to let the flop check through.
It's not a disaster. Donking is really unbalanced and super-strong. And the donkers don't recognize it, because they don't realize the number of times they would have gotten multiple bets in and don't because someone just called them or even folds to their donk.

I think it's just as much of a "disaster" when we donk and lose a second bet from 2 or 3 players as it is when the flop checks through.

Sometimes flops check through. It happens. Not a disaster, and certainly not something that should cause a player to miss check-raises all the time.
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Old 09-08-2017, 02:48 PM   #23
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

"Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know balance matters less in loose multiway pots"
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Old 09-09-2017, 05:12 AM   #24
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Re: 3/6 bb line. How can I maximize value here?

I also would check-raise the flop in the games that I generally play, but I'm not so sure it is best in a possibly very passive 3/6 game

How would you guys play the hand if you knew that the preflop raiser would only C-bet if he had your hand beat?
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