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Old 07-07-2020, 09:45 AM   #1
ninefingershuffle
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Maybe Boring Spot

20/40

Villain is a good player who tends to three bet me lighter than he probably should because he thinks Iím lag.

I open utg+1 with KQ he three bets two seats over and I call.

I check/call a flop of JT6

Turn is T

This maybe one of those it doesnít matter spots. I tend to c/r here but I wonder how much fold equity I really have.
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Old 07-07-2020, 12:09 PM   #2
maka2184
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Re: Maybe Boring Spot

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
20/40

Villain is a good player who tends to three bet me lighter than he probably should because he thinks Iím lag.

I open utg+1 with KQ he three bets two seats over and I call.

I check/call a flop of JT6

Turn is T

This maybe one of those it doesnít matter spots. I tend to c/r here but I wonder how much fold equity I really have.
*Biased -EV Order if LAGTAG villain similar from 20/40 Half Kill*

Chk/c > C/R > donk 3 bet turn > dunk call turn

Think KQs has SD value on enough river run outs unimproved since typical 20/40 LAGTAG villains tend to 3 barrel cbet FTR too light at times as aggressor.

I play bad so C/R turn is probably correct?

Not certain how many combos of C/R for value here since Tx, 66 I typically fast play flop vs light PF 3betters that rarely fold river sans utter garbage
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Old 07-07-2020, 01:34 PM   #3
ninefingershuffle
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Re: Maybe Boring Spot

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Originally Posted by maka2184 View Post
*Biased -EV Order if LAGTAG villain similar from 20/40 Half Kill*

Chk/c > C/R > donk 3 bet turn > dunk call turn

Think KQs has SD value on enough river run outs unimproved since typical 20/40 LAGTAG villains tend to 3 barrel cbet FTR too light at times as aggressor.

I play bad so C/R turn is probably correct?

Not certain how many combos of C/R for value here since Tx, 66 I typically fast play flop vs light PF 3betters that rarely fold river sans utter garbage
I mean, I'm waaaay behind his range here - any pair is ahead, any ace is ahead, and any bs like JT, QJ, KT yadda yadda hit the flop. It's not like he can have 54s here. It's all about whether I can get the weaker part of the range to fold by taking a more aggressive action. I don't think I can show down king high here if I miss.
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Old 07-07-2020, 04:45 PM   #4
maka2184
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Re: Maybe Boring Spot

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Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
I mean, I'm waaaay behind his range here - any pair is ahead, any ace is ahead, and any bs like JT, QJ, KT yadda yadda hit the flop. It's not like he can have 54s here. It's all about whether I can get the weaker part of the range to fold by taking a more aggressive action. I don't think I can show down king high here if I miss.
Giving waaaayyyy too much credit for villain.

Checked with villain. Heard this game was quite epic with a NL Donkament semi pro stuck in middle calling 3 cold PF unless that was a different hand.

Not really sure how wide villain's range is since villain comes up with pretty bad BS in my biased opinion at times as PF3b but yolo (not certain how sober villain was which kinda changes things though tolerance probably too significant to make difference )

Yeah probably can't SD K high here but I'm a calling station fish and not a fan of EVER folding vs villain based on game history personally
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Old 07-07-2020, 05:45 PM   #5
ninefingershuffle
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Re: Maybe Boring Spot

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Originally Posted by maka2184 View Post
Giving waaaayyyy too much credit for villain.

Checked with villain. Heard this game was quite epic with a NL Donkament semi pro stuck in middle calling 3 cold PF unless that was a different hand.

Not really sure how wide villain's range is since villain comes up with pretty bad BS in my biased opinion at times as PF3b but yolo (not certain how sober villain was which kinda changes things though tolerance probably too significant to make difference )

Yeah probably can't SD K high here but I'm a calling station fish and not a fan of EVER folding vs villain based on game history personally
Must be wrong villain. This one never drinks.
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Old 07-07-2020, 06:01 PM   #6
maka2184
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Re: Maybe Boring Spot

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Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
Must be wrong villain. This one never drinks.
I think villain decided to not drink & play to increase EV during sessions. May smoke a cigar, hookah, etc though which I imagine Villain still does.

Might be wrong villain in which case, my apologies.

Per 6+ tabling expert 5/10 - 10/20 LHE Cereus prop

C/R flop
C/R turn

Seemed fine as default based on how wide villain range is after MP pf 3B. Villain rarely chks back flop although started to more often but only vs specific opponents.

Could be wrong villain if this game wasn't in Midwest

Last edited by maka2184; 07-07-2020 at 06:06 PM.
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Old 07-08-2020, 12:19 PM   #7
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Re: Maybe Boring Spot

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Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
20/40

Villain is a good player who tends to three bet me lighter than he probably should because he thinks Iím lag.

I open utg+1 with KQ he three bets two seats over and I call.

I check/call a flop of JT6

Turn is T

This maybe one of those it doesnít matter spots. I tend to c/r here but I wonder how much fold equity I really have.
What kind of range will this villain be three-betting you with preflop? I assume they are range-betting the flop; how honest are their turn c-bets?

How many tens do you have in your range given the flop play? Would you have check-called the flop with JT or AT? T9? With JJ? Do you open 66 in early position?

I am not a great LHE player at this point, but I rather think that this flop is one to fast-play, with an OESD and backdoor diamonds. (I don't think I would fastplay KQo; but I might not even open it in EP.) We're out of position; let's take control of the hand early.
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Old 07-08-2020, 04:51 PM   #8
tw2238
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Re: Maybe Boring Spot

I don’t think your trying to get him to fold anything. This is more of you balancing a strategy so that he will continue to pay you off in future when you do have a made hand .
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Old 07-08-2020, 05:58 PM   #9
checkraisdraw
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Re: Maybe Boring Spot

I'm a fan of fastplaying the flop, as I would do with many hands, and barreling down all the way.
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Old 07-08-2020, 06:03 PM   #10
ninefingershuffle
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Re: Maybe Boring Spot

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Originally Posted by AlanBostick View Post
What kind of range will this villain be three-betting you with preflop? I assume they are range-betting the flop; how honest are their turn c-bets?

How many tens do you have in your range given the flop play? Would you have check-called the flop with JT or AT? T9? With JJ? Do you open 66 in early position?

I am not a great LHE player at this point, but I rather think that this flop is one to fast-play, with an OESD and backdoor diamonds. (I don't think I would fastplay KQo; but I might not even open it in EP.) We're out of position; let's take control of the hand early.
55+, KTs +, AT+, and some mixed big card bullshit for villain

For me, TT, KTs, ATo and the ocassionately T9 or JTs
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Old 07-08-2020, 11:53 PM   #11
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Re: Maybe Boring Spot

I think the flop and turn are both super close. I usually c/r the flop here if villain's range is really so wide (though it's pretty dumb of him to 3bet light vs. an UTG+1 at a 9-handed table). The turn is interesting because we actually rep something with our c/r. It's mostly a matter of what we think villain would do with AQ/AK/underpairs. And this is such a unique spot that our read is going to be a very rough estimate.

There are definitely players who have almost nothing but AJ+ or KQ once they bet the turn. They would usually check back an underpair or AQ/AK. Against these players, check-raising is obviously suicidal since they are calling down 100%. There are also players who barrel turns excessively and will be like "Oh darn, guess I'm beat!" with their underpairs and AQ/AK. Against these players, you definitely want to c/r though following through on the river is questionable. Barreling the river mainly makes sense against a player who both bet-calls the turn with AQ/AK and folds brick rivers which is pretty rare.

It's tempting to get into that mindset where it's like "but if I don't c/r here, I never have any bluffs on this board!" Not having any bluffs can definitely be okay if villain is going to let you get away with it. People who will make this read on you and fold AJ or *gasp* QQ mainly exist in supernit live cultures or maybe they are primarily NL players (NL players tend to overfold postflop). Most players will just be like "He's aggressive, gotta call him down!" without thinking too deeply about how you play this specific spot.

I prefer a c/r on the turn against this guy, as his estimated 3betting range is pretty absurd against an UTG+1. But it is a tough spot since such spewy players are usually so showdownbound. If he calls down underpairs or AK, we are just lighting money on fire.
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Old 07-09-2020, 02:27 AM   #12
ninefingershuffle
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Re: Maybe Boring Spot

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Originally Posted by Unguarded View Post
I think the flop and turn are both super close. I usually c/r the flop here if villain's range is really so wide (though it's pretty dumb of him to 3bet light vs. an UTG+1 at a 9-handed table). The turn is interesting because we actually rep something with our c/r. It's mostly a matter of what we think villain would do with AQ/AK/underpairs. And this is such a unique spot that our read is going to be a very rough estimate.

There are definitely players who have almost nothing but AJ+ or KQ once they bet the turn. They would usually check back an underpair or AQ/AK. Against these players, check-raising is obviously suicidal since they are calling down 100%. There are also players who barrel turns excessively and will be like "Oh darn, guess I'm beat!" with their underpairs and AQ/AK. Against these players, you definitely want to c/r though following through on the river is questionable. Barreling the river mainly makes sense against a player who both bet-calls the turn with AQ/AK and folds brick rivers which is pretty rare.

It's tempting to get into that mindset where it's like "but if I don't c/r here, I never have any bluffs on this board!" Not having any bluffs can definitely be okay if villain is going to let you get away with it. People who will make this read on you and fold AJ or *gasp* QQ mainly exist in supernit live cultures or maybe they are primarily NL players (NL players tend to overfold postflop). Most players will just be like "He's aggressive, gotta call him down!" without thinking too deeply about how you play this specific spot.

I prefer a c/r on the turn against this guy, as his estimated 3betting range is pretty absurd against an UTG+1. But it is a tough spot since such spewy players are usually so showdownbound. If he calls down underpairs or AK, we are just lighting money on fire.
Really excellent post. My thinking exactly and better said. I think this guy barrels his who range when I call the flop, never folds a pair, and peeks AQ/AK but folds to a river barrel.
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Old 07-09-2020, 03:33 AM   #13
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Re: Maybe Boring Spot

Something I didn't think of... based on your estimated range, this guy would almost certainly 3bet any suited ace. Spewy players love small suited aces. This would make it a pretty clear c/r and barrel river imo.
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Old 07-09-2020, 04:21 AM   #14
ninefingershuffle
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Re: Maybe Boring Spot

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Something I didn't think of... based on your estimated range, this guy would almost certainly 3bet any suited ace. Spewy players love small suited aces. This would make it a pretty clear c/r and barrel river imo.
For reasons I canít explain, I think he would call A8s and below.
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