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Old 09-25-2018, 05:32 PM   #2226
DeathDonkey
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

I have no problem with tabling your hand in Holdem or Omaha. Draw games are a different animal and I’m just telling you what’s common. I’m sure some guys that play bigger than me may not even agree with me, I wouldn’t say there is unanimous agreement on this.
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Old 09-25-2018, 07:43 PM   #2227
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

In the draw game example player A only tables his hand and doesn't spread the cards nor announce the hand. Dealer misreads the hand and player B mucks. Only when another player tells the dealer to spread the hand is the dealer's error noticed.

Where is the angle?
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Old 09-25-2018, 09:18 PM   #2228
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetdog View Post
In the draw game example player A only tables his hand and doesn't spread the cards nor announce the hand. Dealer misreads the hand and player B mucks. Only when another player tells the dealer to spread the hand is the dealer's error noticed.

Where is the angle?
I already answered your question, just 5 post before you asked it.
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Old 09-25-2018, 10:51 PM   #2229
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

Can confirm, answer was posted.
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Old 09-25-2018, 10:52 PM   #2230
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

Congrats on 12k, chillrob.
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Old 09-25-2018, 10:59 PM   #2231
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

Damn, I never notice that before it happens...
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Old 09-26-2018, 09:41 AM   #2232
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

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Originally Posted by Wetdog View Post
In the draw game example player A only tables his hand and doesn't spread the cards nor announce the hand. Dealer misreads the hand and player B mucks. Only when another player tells the dealer to spread the hand is the dealer's error noticed.

Where is the angle?
The angle would be if there is a 7 and some low cards all mixed together (after 3 draws where a bunch of other cards have been tossed around), a straight can never be good, and the guy presenting his hand knows that, yet still spreads the cards as if he's got a decent hand. That's sleazy and would have half the table on telegram telling players in 5 minutes what just happened, if something wasn't worked out.

If he throws out the 34567 and laughs and says, "haha wrong game" then Player B should understand he's prob won the pot, as a straight beats nothing. If he mucks, then it's his error and Idk what Player A would do. The table gets messy when there's 3 draws and a bunch of cards getting passed back and forth and held facedown by the players, so I guess most try to make things as painless and efficient at showdown
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Old 09-26-2018, 09:31 PM   #2233
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

Interesting. The other players at the table cajoled Player A to at least split the pot with Player B, but no one ever accused him of shooting an angle or even infer that he did. They basically suggested dealer error. Maybe this was a “nice” way to convey to Player A that he should split.

He kept the pot
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Old 09-26-2018, 10:35 PM   #2234
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

Player A is kinda scummy, but not TOO scummy. He knew he had a straight and was likely beat, and to do nothing about it is indicative of character.
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Old 09-26-2018, 11:00 PM   #2235
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

So here's one - I always wonder why people would do something like this when you're at least a semi-regular and other regs at the table are going to think you're a POS but whatever - s9 is shortstacked and OOP, s1 has been the aggressor. On the turn, s9 states "all-in 5" and does so. s1 calls the 5 and s9 says "you good you good" and grabs a chip back off the table preparing to leave.

River bricks and they both have missed draws with s9 having the higher card. At least three of the rest of us say that he took a chip back and s1 only owes 4, but the dealer said because s9 verbally declared all-in, he was entitled to all 5 chips. I guess this is a rule? I dunno, but no one at the table is looking at this guy the same way now.
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Old 09-27-2018, 12:10 AM   #2236
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

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So here's one - I always wonder why people would do something like this when you're at least a semi-regular and other regs at the table are going to think you're a POS but whatever - s9 is shortstacked and OOP, s1 has been the aggressor. On the turn, s9 states "all-in 5" and does so. s1 calls the 5 and s9 says "you good you good" and grabs a chip back off the table preparing to leave.
I'm confused by this description. He reaches into the pot (well, the stack of chips that he put out as his bet) and takes a chip? In my head, I don't see how this looks at all normal.
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Old 09-27-2018, 12:17 AM   #2237
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

Yeah, I don't get it either. Someone bet his last $5 as a bluff, knowing he was beat? Then takes that last chip back, and no one says anything?
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Old 09-27-2018, 01:04 AM   #2238
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

He slid out 5 $2 chips then as he stood up, grabbed one of them (the dealer had not taken them in yet) and those of us on the same side of the table did say something after the showdown
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Old 09-27-2018, 01:21 AM   #2239
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

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He slid out 5 $2 chips then as he stood up, grabbed one of them (the dealer had not taken them in yet) and those of us on the same side of the table did say something after the showdown
Quote:
Originally Posted by offTopic View Post
So here's one - I always wonder why people would do something like this when you're at least a semi-regular and other regs at the table are going to think you're a POS but whatever - s9 is shortstacked and OOP, s1 has been the aggressor. On the turn, s9 states "all-in 5" and does so. s1 calls the 5 and s9 says "you good you good" and grabs a chip back off the table preparing to leave.

River bricks and they both have missed draws with s9 having the higher card. At least three of the rest of us say that he took a chip back and s1 only owes 4, but the dealer said because s9 verbally declared all-in, he was entitled to all 5 chips. I guess this is a rule? I dunno, but no one at the table is looking at this guy the same way now.
I wouldn't treat any aspect of this hand as precedent-setting.
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Old 09-27-2018, 01:28 AM   #2240
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

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Originally Posted by holmfries View Post
Interesting. The other players at the table cajoled Player A to at least split the pot with Player B, but no one ever accused him of shooting an angle or even infer that he did. They basically suggested dealer error. Maybe this was a “nice” way to convey to Player A that he should split.

He kept the pot
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Originally Posted by AlwaysFolding View Post
Player A is kinda scummy, but not TOO scummy. He knew he had a straight and was likely beat, and to do nothing about it is indicative of character.
There's just no reason to silently fan a straight after getting called, unless one's goal is to confuse a player/dealer into mucking the best hand, as straights can't beat anything once called. When other players try and convince him that he should give something back, that is their way of calling it an angle. Referring to the dealer error is just a less confrontational way to do it. I'd imagine there is a less forgiving attitude towards Player A as the player pool shrinks and the stakes get higher but I'm not sure.
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Old 09-27-2018, 01:56 AM   #2241
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

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Originally Posted by holmfries View Post
40 mix (which I don’t play). 2-7 triple draw.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacauBound View Post
There's just no reason to silently fan a straight after getting called, unless one's goal is to confuse a player/dealer into mucking the best hand, as straights can't beat anything once called.
I table my bluffs in hold'em, and I don't always announce that it's a bluff. I just turn my hand face up because that's what I do when I bet and am called. I do it with value bets and bluffs, and those bets where I don't even know what I'm hoping to see happen. This leads me to believe that if I sat down in a mix game and had my bluff called, I'd table it because that's the type of habit I've developed.

Edit: Ultimately, it's a form of "cards speak."
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Old 09-27-2018, 02:43 AM   #2242
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

It's tough to explain if you have never played the game, but this is really different than any comparable situation in holdem. The closest I could come up with is if you were betting the river in holdem with the nut low on a board where it looked like you could possibly have a straight, and after being called, you turned over your hand, had a confident / smug look on your face, and put a dollar chip for a dealer toke on top of your cards.
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Old 09-27-2018, 12:34 PM   #2243
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

Reading a hand is part of the game in hold’em. If you can’t figure out what a guy has when he silently tabled two cards and you muck the winner, tough luck.

In draw games or games with more cards, it is angly to do this, and especially angly not to correct s dealervwho announces your hand incorrectly
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Old 09-27-2018, 04:53 PM   #2244
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

My feeling in a general poker game, the hand is over when the last bet is called and one or more hands are tabled. Gamesmanship within the rules before that point is good. If someone is sitting there deciding whether or not to table a hand, it is cheating to have a 3rd party to tell him to do so. Same with telling someone to call on the river. OPTAH. Once that last bet is called, OPTAH is gone and now the cards speak. We have a professional dealer to read the hands, but as players who care about the game being square, it is our responsibility to speak up if something is wrong. Dude tables something and the dealer mis-declares it, you're supposed to speak up. Dude lies about his hand, you're supposed to say "75 makes nut now, not a str8." Turning over your hand with the intention of tricking the other player? I think that's wrong. Those sorts of crappy angles are a reasonable part of my beef with horrid Bellagio regs -- there's a group of them willing to shoot these sorts of angles because of the "you muck the winner, tough luck" mentality. Not saying I think that's what NFS is suggesting here (in his example, the dealer should correctly declare the hand shown), but I think that allowing stuff like angling once the hand is done leads to having a crappy room.
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Old 09-27-2018, 07:13 PM   #2245
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

Quote:
Originally Posted by offTopic View Post
He slid out 5 $2 chips then as he stood up, grabbed one of them (the dealer had not taken them in yet) and those of us on the same side of the table did say something after the showdown
This bit just struck me. You should say something as soon as he reaches into the pot and takes a chip.
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Old 09-28-2018, 05:51 AM   #2246
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

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Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
I table my bluffs in hold'em, and I don't always announce that it's a bluff. I just turn my hand face up because that's what I do when I bet and am called. I do it with value bets and bluffs, and those bets where I don't even know what I'm hoping to see happen. This leads me to believe that if I sat down in a mix game and had my bluff called, I'd table it because that's the type of habit I've developed.

Edit: Ultimately, it's a form of "cards speak."
Nobody would ever fault someone that is inexperienced at live 2-7 tdl for taking Player A's action and tabling/spreading/fanning the hand, whether it was 4/8 or HS. Though it seems like something could be worked out any time a dealer error influenced the winner to muck. If you seemed to understand what you were doing and persisted, w the perceived goal of winning money in this fashion (I've heard of some ugly draw angles), somebody would say something. Then it's just another poker etiquette argument.

Triple draw hands can take a long time, as some players may have trouble w dexterity, or reading their hand and deciding what to draw w/o giving away that info until their turn. But often the action can seem head-spinning, if dealer/players are experienced.

I'd imagine frequent smoke betting, calling your hand as you show it, and announcing you have a straight are some draw norms that keep game moving. Esp if paying time.
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Old 09-28-2018, 12:47 PM   #2247
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

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This bit just struck me. You should say something as soon as he reaches into the pot and takes a chip.
No, you shouldn't say anything.

Because the dealer should have beaten you to it!
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Old 09-28-2018, 01:40 PM   #2248
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

And if the dealer doesn't, it is every player's responsibility to support the integrity of the game.

(Am I agreeing with Aaron W.? I can't actually tell, because he's on my Ignore list.)

Last edited by AlanBostick; 09-28-2018 at 01:41 PM. Reason: A stopped clock *is* right twice a day, though.
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Old 09-28-2018, 07:16 PM   #2249
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

Its an old lowball rule that if you have a pair in your hand, you MUST verbally declare “pair” when tabling your hand if your bet is called. You can still just muck your hand without saying anything. But if you table it, and you have a pair but dont announce it, the pot is awarded to the other player if they mucked their hand. Ive seen the rule enforced at commerce before.

Im not sure if the same rule applies to straights in 2-7 but I assume that it does.

The people who table their bluffs in lowball and don’t declare are (almost) always new to mix, and are unaware of this rule, and that the ettiqutte here is different than in holdem




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Old 09-28-2018, 08:39 PM   #2250
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

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Am I agreeing with Aaron W.?
I'll try not to let that happen in the future.
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