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Old 09-18-2018, 06:19 PM   #2176
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

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Correct ruling is the button’s bet stands and action proceeds from there but if you are going to fold regardless, I think the correct play is to just move on with your life.
+1 on the correct ruling. Yes, significant action has occurred. If UTG wanted to bet, he should have said so before.


If you're folding to either bet, I'm with DK. You can probably just get on with your life.
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Old 09-18-2018, 06:32 PM   #2177
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

I might just let it go as well, but the problem with that is if it's really happening a lot and you only say something when you're interested in the hand, it could both show you have a hand you're interested in, and people might think you're an angle shooter.
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Old 09-18-2018, 07:50 PM   #2178
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

Get better at rules. Better for protecting yourself, gives you "soft" options to remind dealer and players "doesn't significant action matter here?" for example. Play it by ear from there. By the rules should be the default but when you're not affected, getting on with it is a fine outcome too.

I don't fault your speaking to management either way.
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:03 PM   #2179
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

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Originally Posted by Munga30 View Post
I don't fault your speaking to management either way.
Totally agree that it is in your best interest that the rules are correctly and fairly enforced all the time. In practice, being table captain may not pay off.



I like your polite suggestion method in most situations.
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Better for protecting yourself, gives you "soft" options to remind dealer and players "doesn't significant action matter here?"
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:06 PM   #2180
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

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Originally Posted by holmfries View Post
Other than not playing there, anything else that I can do about this?
One thing you should be aware of, which people alluded to, is not being taken seriously because people think you have an ulterior motive.

1. Choose incidents where you specifically don't have a stake in the outcome to make your point. Specifically, I disagree with the "if you're gonna fold just move on" attitude - that is where you have the most credibility, where basically you're like, "I'm going to fold either way but this isn't being handled correctly."

Also pick a time to complain when you're up f9r the session to avoid "he's just mad because he lost" dismissals.

2. Bring up that you've played a lot and this is a recent phenomenon. Unless you've been frivolously complaining for years (in which case go read the boy who cried wolf), that you've complained 4 times in 10 years and 3 of those were in the past 2 months should carry a lot of weight.

3. Emphasize that your complaint is primarily about the procedure, not the outcome (this is why it's easier if it's clear you had no conflicts of interest). A little flattery may help - point out that the dealer isn't equipped to handle theae complexities and only the floor can save everyone from eternal doom.
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Old 09-18-2018, 09:28 PM   #2181
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

Maybe they changed their policy so dealers get in trouble for too many floor calls.
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:14 PM   #2182
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

tl;dr don't cry wolf so often is what I'm gathering
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:52 PM   #2183
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

A thing that I've 'had' to do so frequently that I can't put a number on it: There's a dispute, someone asks the dealer to call the floor. Dealer resists and I come out with: 'A PLAYER CALLED FOR A FLOOR! YOUR JOB NOW IS TO CALL A FLOOR!'

I'd rather waste the time than have to listen to the back and forth which is usually over some nit-picky thing.
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Old 09-18-2018, 11:51 PM   #2184
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

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Originally Posted by holmfries View Post
Sitting in a nondescript 8/16 kill game waiting for 20 or 40. 8 way limped pot where I am in MP2. Flop comes out and dealer is carrying on a conversation with the one seat. This is another regular, otherwise good dealer. SB, BB check, UTG does not check (apparently), MP checks, I check, CO checks, button bets, UTG now decides he wants to bets and does, MP folds, I say “whoa, whoa” or something like that.
One thing that isn't indicated here is kind of the "flow" of the hand. I think it's entirely possible that UTG was thinking and didn't notice the action was moving around the table without him, especially if the checking is happening kind of fast. A lot can happen in 3 seconds. It's also possible that button bet, then UTG bet (not realizing what happened) and MP folded thinking that UTG called and it was back around to his action.

So there seems to be a reasonable collision of mistakes causing this to play out.

I'm somewhat surprised that the immediate consensus was that button's bet stood and that action should proceed from there. If UTG never actually checked, and he acted in a reasonable amount of time (again, time not specified in the description of the hand), then the decision might also wind back to UTG's bet, but that button's money is committed to the pot (can't fold) as if he called out of turn.

You should not try be the rule-enforcer. That's not your job, and you don't want that job. It does you no good to be "that guy."

It's entirely possible (I would say highly probable) in this case that button would have "pulled back" his bet to allow things to play forward after UTG's bet and would have just called. And then life goes on.

In your situation, I would have just folded my hand and let play continue based on what the table felt was fine. It looks to me like it was just a mistake. And I wouldn't have said anything more unless button decided to fold. I might have made a comment, "You were going to bet, but now you're going to fold?" or I might have just let it slide that time. But in both cases, I make a mental note.

The second time something like that happens is when I'll start to make a point of it and possibly involve the floor. Unless someone is doing something like this consistently, it's not an angle. It's just a mistake. And this is even more true at the lower level games, because those people make lots of mistakes. The game is not ruined if that one player takes back that one bet that one time because there was confusion at the table.
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Old 09-19-2018, 12:33 AM   #2185
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

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Originally Posted by Howard Beale View Post
A thing that I've 'had' to do so frequently that I can't put a number on it: There's a dispute, someone asks the dealer to call the floor. Dealer resists and I come out with: 'A PLAYER CALLED FOR A FLOOR! YOUR JOB NOW IS TO CALL A FLOOR!'

I'd rather waste the time than have to listen to the back and forth which is usually over some nit-picky thing.
I've said this before, but I don't know if I have ever asked a dealer to call the floor. I just stand up and yell "FLOOR!". I don't like the wasted time either; I'm louder than most dealers anyway and almost always get their attention. That's what I'd recommend in the future.
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Old 09-19-2018, 12:37 AM   #2186
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

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Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
I'm somewhat surprised that the immediate consensus was that button's bet stood and that action should proceed from there. If UTG never actually checked, and he acted in a reasonable amount of time (again, time not specified in the description of the hand), then the decision might also wind back to UTG's bet, but that button's money is committed to the pot (can't fold) as if he called out of turn.
That would be an improper ruling in pretty much every room I've ever played in; at least any with standard rules. It is up to the player to protect his action. Even if he never checked, and even if it happened pretty quickly, 4 people have acted after him. In most rooms, if there have been 3 people who have acted out of turn behind you, you're out of luck.
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Old 09-19-2018, 01:09 AM   #2187
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

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Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
That would be an improper ruling in pretty much every room I've ever played in; at least any with standard rules. It is up to the player to protect his action. Even if he never checked, and even if it happened pretty quickly, 4 people have acted after him. In most rooms, if there have been 3 people who have acted out of turn behind you, you're out of luck.
Yes, 3 players is a common ruling, though I don't know if it's universal.

That being said, I know that I've been at a table where players are rapping the table to check even before it's their action, which is a cascading failure of out-of-turn-ness. That's kind of the picture I have in mind here (which may or may not be accurate to the reality of this situation).

I actually remember a hand I was in where this sort of thing was happening. It was a super passive game, with hands being checked around a lot. As soon as the flop hit, UTG started tapping the table, and it went around very quickly.

Neither SB nor I had done anything, and we were both the "whoa whoa" guys. Everyone kind of just looked around and shrugged, and we started back at SB. I don't actually remember the action from that point, but I do remember looking at SB and two of us did the "WTF?" look but then kind of chuckled and shrugged it off. I don't remember it being a problem after that, but this was years ago. (We're talking mid-2000s.)
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Old 09-19-2018, 01:22 AM   #2188
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

In the example you gave, I think the SB would / should be out of luck, but you should definitely be allowed to bet if you want to. I don't think you can ever lose your action if the player before you hasn't acted yet. That is an unusual circumstance though.

I agree it can happen very quickly. I remember once years ago playing in a loose 6/12 O8 game at the Bicycle Club. I was first to act, and I'm pretty sure that the flop and turn were checked around. On the river, I made a backdoor straight, but I wasn't quite sure at first, so I quickly picked up my cards to look at them. I immediately hear people behind me saying "check", "check", "check". The floor was called, but I wasn't allowed to bet and was told about the 3 players rule. I still think those guys were angling the out of towner newbie, but rules are rules. Since then, I've always been careful to not let people act behind me while I'm thinking. Sometimes I can't stop them from acting, but as long as I have yelled before 3 people have acted, I will still get to act.

The moral of both this story and getting a floor to come to your table is to YELL LOUD!
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Old 09-19-2018, 03:20 AM   #2189
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

Won the largest pot of my life today, in terms of number of chips in the middle. 8-16, straddle on the button, capped at five bets nine ways preflop. Literally zero folds. I had AKo on the AK5-K-8 board. Nearly 300 little $2 chips when it was all said and done. Got carpal tunnel stacking them. It was awesome.

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Old 09-19-2018, 03:32 AM   #2190
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

Winning almost 40 bets = def awesome . . . for a session. Getting it done in 1 hand is a level or two above awesome, I just don't know the word for it. nh
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Old 09-19-2018, 03:40 AM   #2191
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

Awesome...just curious, what room has a button straddle in a LHE game? I've never seen that.
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Old 09-19-2018, 08:19 AM   #2192
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

King maker pot, indeed.
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Old 09-19-2018, 10:21 AM   #2193
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

I disagree that it is best to immediately call the floor rather than "wasting time" going back and forth with the dealer. Give the dealer the chance to get it right. Nobody likes having their supervisor called on them. The "soft" approach mentioned by Munga can resolve a lot of situations without anyone feeling like they screwed up.

Of course, if two players in the pot disagree on the decision, the floor should be immediately involved.
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Old 09-19-2018, 12:04 PM   #2194
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

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Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
I've been at a table where players are rapping the table to check even before it's their action, which is a cascading failure of out-of-turn-ness.
Things like this are why judgement calls require judgement rather than hard and fast rules.

If the dealer forgets that SB is in the hand and UTG is banging on the table, and SB speaks up immediately, I'm open to letting SB act even if a billion people have checked in the five seconds it takes to stop the action (I advocate stopping the timer at when someone begins to speak up, not when the action actually stops, but that's a different fight).

On the other hand, if SB is hiding his cards so it's not obvious he's in the hand, and action is moving slowly, and he pauses before calling stop, I think 3 people acting behind is too much.

I'm inclined to make the window of opportunity larger for unusally large pots (5-bet kill pot 9 ways gets more time than 2-bet button raise / BB defend) and unusual cards (K83r-2 gets less time than AKQm-A).

You can go to the tapes NFL Instant Replay style and look up time stamps, but ultimately the question you need to answer is subjective, not objective: did people try to act in a reasonable manner? If they tried, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.
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Old 09-19-2018, 12:41 PM   #2195
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

Palace in Lakewood, WA. Only button straddle I have seen in LHE, too.
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Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
Awesome...just curious, what room has a button straddle in a LHE game? I've never seen that.
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Old 09-19-2018, 01:15 PM   #2196
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

Lots of good feedback in this thread as usual. Cali - your thinking is spot on to me. It seems best to intervene (softly at first) in situations that were mishandled which don’t really affect me.

I have zero desire to be the table captain. Zero. But I also don’t want to get negatively impacted in a situation where the dealer screws up and refuses to call the floor (see instance #1 when this happened).

A few additional pieces of context that are helpful as to why I was frustrated and asked for the floor.

1. The action after UTG missed his action took several seconds. He was busy on his phone and didn’t notice the action had passed him. He is a regular and this seemed to be an honest mistake.
2. MP was a non-native English speaker who seemed to not know the rules. When the dealer initially decided that the button action stood, he said something like “but I fold already”. Theb the dealer decided to roll the action back to UTG.

I have no idea why this is happening more frequently. I don’t think the room is discouraging the dealers from calling the floor.

One last note. I am one of the few players in the room who plays everything from 6/12 to 50/100. It is the same dealers that rotate through these games and it is painfully obvious that they treat them differently. This situation would almost never had occurred at a high limit game and if it did, I am almost certain this dealer would have handled it differently. That just doesn’t seem right to me.
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Old 09-19-2018, 01:47 PM   #2197
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

True, but it's almost certain that dealers attribute more value to high limit games versus smaller games because, well, more money is involved. Does that make it "right?" No. Does that make it common? Yes. Also, the players in the big game usually get more preferential treatment than the lowly low limit players. Sad!
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Old 09-19-2018, 02:32 PM   #2198
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

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Originally Posted by holmfries View Post
I have zero desire to be the table captain. Zero. But I also don’t want to get negatively impacted in a situation where the dealer screws up and refuses to call the floor (see instance #1 when this happened).
I agree that you should be willing to take a stand (sometimes) if you're on the negative side of a bad ruling. But this wasn't one of those times.

Quote:
Dealer now snaps back to the table and clearly has no idea what is happening. Button decides to pull back his bet, dealer initially says no you can’t, players argue, they agree that the button can pull his bet back and UTG can bet. I tell the dealer he should call the floor. He says “do you really want to stop the game for that” or something. I ask him to call the floor again. He says “the action is on you, UTG bet and MP folded” or something like that. I tell him I am not acting and he should call the floor. He rolls his eyes and says “seriously?”.
There was no way that you were going to be negatively impacted by this decision, no matter which way it went. And it's not even clear whether *ANYONE* would be negatively impacted. So even though you have "no desire" to be the table captain, the moment you made that decision you have taken on that title. You're not really defending anyone or anything. If everyone else at the table feels okay with the decision, I would say that it's not your place to fight for the "right decision" to be made.

Incidentally, nothing about the table actions you've described seems "out of place" to me. There are things going wrong, but nobody seems to be acting intentionally badly. People aren't paying attention, accidentally acting out of turn because of misreading what's happening, and nobody seems like they're turning this into an angle of some type. All of this would make me even more inclined to just let things go because it just doesn't matter.
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Old 09-19-2018, 03:37 PM   #2199
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Re: 2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

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Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
Things like this are why judgement calls require judgement rather than hard and fast rules.
(snip)

but ultimately the question you need to answer is subjective, not objective: did people try to act in a reasonable manner? If they tried, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.
I like everything callipygian said. If the table snap checks out of turn, I feel one way. If UTG is not paying attention, time passes, and the table misinterprets disinterest as a check, I feel another. It depends.


Quote:
Originally Posted by holmfries View Post
1. The action after UTG missed his action took several seconds. He was busy on his phone and didnít notice the action had passed him. He is a regular and this seemed to be an honest mistake.
now I feel like significant action has occured and his not paying attention cost him the chance to act the first time.
Quote:
It is the same dealers that rotate through these games and it is painfully obvious that they treat them differently. This situation would almost never had occurred at a high limit game and if it did, I am almost certain this dealer would have handled it differently. That just doesnít seem right to me.
Right or wrong, high stakes games are different. Sit down at 50/100, you have to be a "special player" to get a pass for not knowing the rules. In a 2/4 game, dealers have to assume that most anyone needs to be taught the basics.



I'm with Aaron here, too
Quote:
Incidentally, nothing about the table actions you've described seems "out of place" to me. There are things going wrong, but nobody seems to be acting intentionally badly. People aren't paying attention, accidentally acting out of turn because of misreading what's happening, and nobody seems like they're turning this into an angle of some type. All of this would make me even more inclined to just let things go because it just doesn't matter.
It is good when the game runs correctly. I'm not sure I'd stop a game to get a floorman to change a slightly wrong "it didn't much matter" to a absolutely correct ruling in a pot where I was already folding to any action. I wouldn't have the inattentive dealer on my "tip generously" list, though.
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Old 09-19-2018, 05:46 PM   #2200
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2018 NC/LC - Misteaks Were Made

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Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
Awesome...just curious, what room has a button straddle in a LHE game? I've never seen that.

My main room has a button straddle now. Itís bad ass. Makes the game so much better (if it needs to be better) if a number of players are doing. Also allows for five bets pre.

Edit: I didnít even notice where the original post came from. Radio Mike is one of my top blog characters!
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