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Old 04-14-2018, 12:36 PM   #951
ReasonableGuy
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

I'm no O8 expert but: PF fine, flop bet fine, 3-bet okay I think?
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Old 04-14-2018, 01:31 PM   #952
Aaron W.
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

Quote:
Originally Posted by holmfries View Post
UTG limps, I look down at AsKd4s2c UTG + 1 and raise because as I understand aces can be used in the high AND the low.
I think raising preflop is meh. You have a suited ace and an A2, but there are other hands you could have that will have so much more going for them than this in early position.

Quote:
Three people cold call and the BB calls. Flop is A93r with one spade. Checks to me, I bet, everyone calls, UTG CR (in full OMC speech mode) I three bet which I don’t think has ever happened before on the flop in this game, two people now fold and everyone else calls.
I'd probably not 3-bet this one, though I don't hate it. I think you're trying to collect on your low equity (24 for the A234x nuts) more you're trying to collect on your TPTK equity. So you're playing mostly for the low with some chance of backing into a high hand. I kind of want people to draw to bad lows and get there, and then feel like they have to pay off instead of driving them out of the pot.
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Old 04-14-2018, 02:03 PM   #953
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

I wouldn't 3-bet the flop and neither will holmfries once he's played the game a while. We are often drawing to a quarter and TPTK on the flop for high isn't even close to what it is in LHE. Then there are the times when a 4 or 2 hit the turn and we want to vomit bec now someone can have a wheel - or even 2 players - and then we're trying to fill up for half the pot and GL w/ that.

What happens all too often on the turn in 08 when we've hit the flop pretty nicely is why every 08 game should come w/ vomit bags.
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Old 04-14-2018, 03:06 PM   #954
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

Howard beat me to it. Also been sixth'd in that spot a few times, obviously not going runner-runner nut-high
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Old 04-14-2018, 04:36 PM   #955
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

We have 24 on an A3 board. We get quartered way less than when we have A2 on a 34 board.
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Old 04-14-2018, 04:36 PM   #956
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

Still wouldn't 3bef flop because TPTK is not good.
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Old 04-14-2018, 04:44 PM   #957
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

super easy preflop raise

flop - probably don't 3bet because you are often going to isolate yourself against a better high hand (driving out the worse low hands and worse low draws that you want to stay in since they will help pad your low draw)
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Old 04-14-2018, 04:48 PM   #958
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

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Originally Posted by BigBadBabar View Post
super easy preflop raise
You also have to love the fact that the old men in the game will sadly shake their heads, and say "kid has to learn that you don't raise low hands preflop". They'll mark you down as a loose/aggressive monkey.
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Old 04-14-2018, 04:57 PM   #959
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

Preflop we have a monster, raise is good. Flop I like the 3 bet, how could it ever be bad?
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Old 04-14-2018, 11:25 PM   #960
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

It's certainly not terrible but I wouldn't do it. Call it selective memory if you want but I've been there a gazillion times.
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Old 04-15-2018, 12:20 AM   #961
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

If you're John at Canterbury then jamming flops with the nut-low draw and backdoor flush draw is always profitable.

If you're anyone else, it's not.
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Old 04-15-2018, 12:52 AM   #962
Aaron W.
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBadBabar View Post
super easy preflop raise
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
You also have to love the fact that the old men in the game will sadly shake their heads, and say "kid has to learn that you don't raise low hands preflop". They'll mark you down as a loose/aggressive monkey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathDonkey View Post
Preflop we have a monster, raise is good.

I find this interesting. I would have expected that it's super easy if you had something else going for it besides just a suited ace and an A2. It seems that the AK combination just isn't that special in this game. Is that wrong?

The better things that I'm thinking of would include:
* A23 instead of A24
* Double suited
* Pair for set potential

What am I over/undervaluing?
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Old 04-15-2018, 01:07 AM   #963
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

A24K suited Ace is a monster, probably the equivalent of AKs in LHE. The 4 for a 3rd wheel card makes for counterfeit protection, and wheel wrap draws. The K is like the second best possible card to help your high next to another A.
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Old 04-15-2018, 01:29 AM   #964
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

It's an auto raise pf esp at those stakes where the crew will call w/ terrible hands.
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Old 04-15-2018, 01:50 AM   #965
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

Pairs are not really what you're looking for in Omaha 8. I'd much rather have the K and the 4 than a pair.
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Old 04-15-2018, 03:10 AM   #966
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
Pairs are not really what you're looking for in Omaha 8. I'd much rather have the K and the 4 than a pair.
This AINEC: the value of an additional non-paired card is ridiculous.
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Old 04-15-2018, 05:03 AM   #967
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
I find this interesting. I would have expected that it's super easy if you had something else going for it besides just a suited ace and an A2. It seems that the AK combination just isn't that special in this game. Is that wrong?

The better things that I'm thinking of would include:
* A23 instead of A24
* Double suited
* Pair for set potential

What am I over/undervaluing?
There are 169 distinct starting hands in holdem.

There are 16,342 distinct starting hands in Omaha. That's a lot of hands in the top 2-3%. Probably more than you're used to.
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Old 04-15-2018, 08:03 AM   #968
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
I find this interesting. I would have expected that it's super easy if you had something else going for it besides just a suited ace and an A2. It seems that the AK combination just isn't that special in this game. Is that wrong?

The better things that I'm thinking of would include:
* A23 instead of A24
* Double suited
* Pair for set potential

What am I over/undervaluing?
AK makes nut straights and boats.

A24K w/suited ace is a monster. Its top 2% in a full ring game.

Last edited by Wolfram; 04-15-2018 at 08:08 AM.
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Old 04-15-2018, 11:13 AM   #969
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
if you had something else going for it besides just a suited ace and an A2. It seems that the AK combination just isn't that special in this game.
AK by itself isn't as good as LHE . A24 is better than A2. The combination of all of these working together, make this a good two way hand. To me, there's added benefit in that even many of your decent SS opponents see the hand as you described "idiot just raised A2-garbage with just one suit". Also agree with Howard
Quote:
esp at those stakes where the crew will call w/ terrible hands.
Worse lows and worse highs are calling, and you want to get your nut hands in there with non-nut hands. That said, this hand is fine either way.
Quote:
* Pair for set potential
A224 with a suit is counterfeit protection. A277 is clearly worse than A24K. Having a low card that you're hoping to pair for bottom or middle set? Think about the difference with that and what Wolfram said about AK making a nut boat. If your pair isn't big, it isn't making a nutted hand very often.
Quote:
Flop I like the 3 bet, how could it ever be bad?
Maybe my assumptions about 10/20 live players are wrong? I have them as nitty raisers. We've kind of claimed AA2 as a holding pre and on the flop, and somebody didn't care. How wide do you expect to be raised that we're way ahead with TPTK, low draw, and BDFD? Our equity has to be OK in a big pot. Maybe I'm missing something that a better (or even good) O/8 player would see.
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Old 04-15-2018, 01:53 PM   #970
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

Iím not a great Omaha player but I surely think they will continue with worse than you seem to. People cold call flop raises with hot garbage all the time. And this pot is getting fairly large. Itís not so bad for us if people fold live equity.

Also we raised pre and bet the flop and you are saying we are repping AA2? I think you might be being overly nitty
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Old 04-15-2018, 08:21 PM   #971
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathDonkey View Post
Also we raised pre and bet the flop and you are saying we are repping AA2? I think you might be being overly nitty
My experience with live O/8 is that people call with everything, but most of them don't raise with much. There's a lot of MUBS, as evidenced by people missing clear value raises with nut low in multiway pots vs loose/bad opponents. Thus, in their minds we're repping a big hand and an assumed nit raised us. It has been a while since I played much, but I was always amazed at how rarely my thin value bets got raised by clearly raising quality hands -- it is really cheap to bet when they call so much and miss so many raises.

Maybe we just have different assumptions as to how our opponents are terrible? I'd trust yours more than mine.
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Old 04-15-2018, 08:43 PM   #972
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

I've cross-posted the hand in the 08 forum. Let's see what Rapini, for one, says!

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/4...forum-1709482/
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:52 AM   #973
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

Ha funny - I learned some content from this thread today.

To be clear I was just clicking buttons on the turn. Really had no clue. And I thought it would be fun to three bet because I hadn’t seen it happen. For top it off, they both showed their hands and I was too distracted by getting called to the main game that I didn’t see all of it. I know that LP has a worse flush and I think a worse low. I assume UTG had a set and also a worsemlow.
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:10 AM   #974
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

Quote:
Originally Posted by holmfries View Post
Ha funny - I learned some content from this thread today.

To be clear I was just clicking buttons on the turn. Really had no clue. And I thought it would be fun to three bet because I hadnít seen it happen. For top it off, they both showed their hands and I was too distracted by getting called to the main game that I didnít see all of it. I know that LP has a worse flush and I think a worse low. I assume UTG had a set and also a worsemlow.
Was it this?

Quote:
If you're John at Canterbury then jamming flops with the nut-low draw and backdoor flush draw is always profitable.

If you're anyone else, it's not.
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Old 04-16-2018, 08:04 AM   #975
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Re: 2018 NC/LC THREAD - name TBD

good morning.

A few years ago, I was having a great day, no wait. I was having the best day doing absolutely nothing but laying around with my lady friend. Then BOOOOOM. Some dickhead decided to blow up the Boston Marathon. I can't sympathize with those people that were hurt by the blast; I've never experienced anything like that. I'm not trying to downplay the significance of such an event; I can only make sense of the world through my own eyes. In that sense, Patriots Day was a turning point in my life. I'm still deeply in love with the same woman, 5 years thanks for asking, but things have never been so good as they were before that terrible moment.

----

*nerdy content warning*

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...rence-1709512/

----

also, for fun, I made a list of ways to perpetuate arguments:

A Guide to Arguing by me.

someone expresses sadness? "Take the pity party elsewhere."

someone asks for help? either get mad or ignore them. For extra credit you can get mad and then ignore them.

someone has a legitimate concern? minimize their problems. Bonus points if you change the subject to your own problems after downplaying the concern.

someone is being reasonable? be unreasonable.

someone is angry? deny responsibility and maximize their faults.

someone says "you owe me an apology." say "I'm sorry you feel that way."

someone apologizes? say "whatever."

good luck and happy arguing.

peace.
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