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Originally Posted by Bob148
But there is conflict. Right now as I type this, there are people resolving an automobile accident somewhere.
This isn't what "conflict" means.
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Many of them are resolving the conflict peacefully by exchanging insurance information and going about their days.
I'm sure many of them do. But also many of them are hit and runs, many engage in lawsuits, and many do other things. This really isn't a meaningful counter-argument to my claim.
This is like saying "Someone went to the store and didn't steal." It's certainly better than them going to the store and stealing, but it doesn't point to any sort of moral goodness. It's merely the absence of morally bad behaviors.
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If you don't consider that good, or at the least a non evil reaction by the involved parties, then we will have to disagree.
I agree with this being non-evil, and there's nothing in my argumentation that would suggest I would disagree with that. This is especially true since I've explicitly defined such behaviors as being "morally neutral." I don't consider it to be "morally good" when people merely engage in conflict-free behaviors.
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Over the past 16 years, mostly thanks to having a very outgoing alcoholic best friend, I've spent many hours conversing and interacting with strangers at bars. Not once did I get into a fight. In fact I don't consider any of the behavior that I've witnessed in that time to be evil. Even the time that a mean college guy got pissed and shoved the local mentally handicapped townie for bumping into him was resolved peacefully without a single punch being thrown. The guy that bumped into him actually crashed into me as I sat at the bar. So I looked at the guy that shoved him, to which he responded "sorry dude." Then we all went back to having a good time.
That was literally the worst thing I've witnessed at a bar and the conflict was resolved peacefully. I think that if evil is so prevalent as you suggest, that I would have been subjected to it in that time. Maybe I ran good? I don't think so. I think evil is not as prevalent as you suggest.
Take for example a friend of mine whose house burned down. he lost nearly everything. Guess what happened? The community helped him get back on his feet with furniture, cash, checks, and physical labor all with no questions asked nor expectation of payback.
I can go on and on about good things that I've witnessed in my life. If I was to go on and on about evil things? I would have to bring up external information sources that are not contained within (my experience).
Maybe you're not so lucky in that you've experienced much evil in your time. I can't disagree if that's your experience. However, if you're using anything but (Aaron W's experience) and are including all the crap the media feeds you, then I can definitely see why you feel that way.
Personal anecdotes don't mean anything in this argument.
That you've managed to not get into fights at bars is fine. Again, I don't think merely avoiding conflict is the same as peace. That the situation in the bar de-escalated from a near fight only serves to make my point for me. The expectation is that it would go down poorly. That it didn't is a pleasant surprise.
And that the community came out to support your friend whose house burned down? I do not deny that this is a good thing or that good things happen. But here's the thing: Suppose that *nobody* stepped up to help. According to you, this is still a "good" outcome because it's not as if your friend went on a murderous rampage.
It's not so much about "feeling." It's simply an observation of reality. I'll point out that nobody has actually challenged the very specific claims I made about human behaviors at the start:
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Originally Posted by Aaron W.
If we take a step back and look over the broad expanse of history, I think it becomes quite clear that evil is more natural than good when we consider how humans relate to other humans.
* Children are naturally inclined towards selfishness.
* Human psychology tends towards division (in-group/out-group).
* Relationships naturally tend toward conflict.
* Trust is easy to break and hard to form.
All of these are observations that I think support the idea that humans are naturally more bad than good. When I look around at the world, I see pockets of good in the midst of a sea of evil. I do not see pockets of evil in the midst of a sea of good. Evil is the constant, and it's a surprise when we see good overcome it.
I believe that the failure to challenge these things is more evidence of the success of the argument.
Again, I do not deny that there is good in the world, or that people are capable of doing good things, or that people actually do good things. Any argumentation that tries to make its point by arguing in this manner will be unsuccessful because it doesn't address the actual argument I'm presenting.
Last edited by Aaron W.; 10-09-2017 at 02:32 PM.