You really can't tell where you changed things?

LOL Bob -- Just give up. Just admit were so quick to defend yourself as being right that you literally barely read anything.

You're making yourself look much, much worse by trying to argue this.

Do you understand that 66 can be ahead of your opponent's preflop range, yet on the flop you can be at a range vs range equity disadvantage?

Yes. But do you actually understand what it is that's being discussed?

Have you really spent the whole time making an argument for something that has nothing to do with the scenario being presented?

This is a blind push. The flop doesn't matter in this strategic approach. It was a particular scenario in which you *might* attain a better result by causing your opponent to fold. It is equivalent in value for the times he calls because your alternative would have been to push preflop anyway.

I had hoped that you were better than this, but maybe you're not.

Which is exactly why it's absolutely horrible. The flop matters.

Put yourself in the button's position. You raise preflop, get called by a shortstack in a blind position that you know likes to use the stop n go with underpairs. Are you happy with this situation?

How often are you going to be in a tournament with a player in the BB with whom you have enough experience playing to realize that he does the stop and go often and didn't just hit the flop?

Depends on how many tourneys you play and the size of the player pool. Unknowns that donk tend to get called by any half decent hand on the flop. They show up with all kinds of crappy hands when they do so. Adding a few underpairs to the list of hands they've played badly doesn't change this approach much. With a good read that this opponent donks exclusively strong hands, you can start making some exploitive folds, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

All this tourney talk is boring

The tourney talk is interesting; it's the mud-wrestling that is boring.

Lols of course the flop mattes and no it's not a blind push. You don't call 66 and ship the TJQ and hope he folds 88, you still have 9 bigs for the next orbit.

You ship the T72 flop and hope for the best

Aaron W, please stop. It takes two to argue and you are at fault here. For 10+ years you haven't been able to resist interrogating people who post in any thread in the micros forum. I could at least see it being relevant in the limit holdem strategy threads, since I know you've played up to $1/2 online and $4/8 live. But the non-limit stuff, especially in the NC/LC thread, and especially in games you aren't that familiar with? Come on.

I hope my excitement and passion for poker isn't mistaken for anger. I can have that perceived tone when I get excited.

I set up a specific scenario to be examined, and even highlighted areas that are open to fair criticism. Instead, there's a bunch of other stuff about scenarios that aren't under consideration.

I disagree that I'm "at fault" here. I laid out a very clear line and was entirely open to being criticized and have my errors pointed out. But I won't take "I pushed four times in a row and won (which proves I'm right) and you hate money" as a reasonable response.

Edit: Please note #1479 - You'll notice that Bob ninja-edited after making the claim that I never laid out a specific scenario. Of course, there was a specific scenario. Those are the types of games that really make me think poorly of him.

Then it's not a planned stop-and-go and you're not comparing it to a preflop all-in push. It's a "call preflop and wait for a safe flop to push" which is a different line entirely. I would also argue that this line is probably going to be worse than just pushing preflop. Because you're actually letting a ton of worse hands get away cheaply. You would rather be all-in preflop against them while you're ahead so you can get that value.

You still have not raised a meaningful comparison to push all in (which is what you said you would do) compared to calling preflop and pushing on the flop to try to get better hands to fold.

You're making some God-level read assumptions here that seem completely unwarranted.

I couldn't care less about your tone. I want to see a meaningful strategic post.

I'll outline the two positions:
* You: Push all in preflop.
* Me: Call preflop. Push any flop.

Make the argument as to why your play is better than mine.

Agreed. I posted some fodder for discussion and immediately it derailed into this NL tourney discussion? This happened with some poor guys hand he posted not long ago as well.

I'm going to have to take this one back. Apparently, it wasn't a ninja edit. He posted again between and it looked like it was an edited post that completely deleted the original claim that no scenario had been posted.

My apologies for this.

I think the most important takeaway here is that you overvalue winning this pot and undervalue the possibility of a double up. The former will make you feel good like you accomplished your goal more often, but the latter will help you win more tourneys. That's where the money is in tourneys.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if your plan is both -chipev and -$ev in the long run. It's just that simple. I don't know how else to explain it without repeating stuff I've already typed out that you already deemed "worthless."

The bold was directed at Alan when we were discussing the possibility of calling some hands in the blind when short stacked.

Also, "you hate money" is taken out of context. The whole statement is back a ways, but I remember it had to do with calling preflop and committing to call any bets no matter what, which is a great way to get eliminated from tourneys drawing dead or close to it with an underpair. If check folding is free, but you choose to make a -ev call, then that's really bad poker no matter how you cut it.

Time to lock the thread.

I'd love to hear your argument why shoving the 9TJ flop with 66 is better than check folding, because it's clearly not

He's not making an argument either way about those two options. Calling preflop and then checking flop is not one of the two in the list you quoted. The stop and go is an alternative for shoving preflop, not for seeing a flop and then deciding what to do.

Why?

What valuable discussion is it displacing or replacing or drowning out?

If anything, the posts should be put into a different thread and sent to a NL strategy forum.