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Old 09-22-2017, 01:04 AM   #1451
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KL03 View Post
I saw that definition also, but in LHE, I believe it was betting the flop, getting raised, and just calling with the intention of donking the turn. Seemed to be mostly a play to avoid getting free carded. I don't see many people advocating for it these days, so I guess it didn't stand the test of time.
Sometimes the turn will favor your range rather than theirs. It's not so much the intent to donk the turn, but the turn will affect who's range is ahead.

I.e., button opens, I call in BB.

Flop: 9-8-3
I c/r, they 3-bet, I call.

Turn: 9
I bet.
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Old 09-22-2017, 01:24 AM   #1452
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

So you have 0 hands you c/r in that spot ?
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Old 09-22-2017, 01:35 AM   #1453
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

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Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
So you have 0 hands you c/r in that spot ?
Against some opponents, yes. If they mindlessly barrel, then no. Depends how often they are 3-betting with overcards otf and also how often they are checking back the turn on scary cards.

BTW, this question is kind of retarded. I might as well ask you "so there's 0 hands you bet in this spot?". An example does not mean you always do something, I'm giving an example of how turn cards can improve your range vs. your opponents and so you will need to sometimes bet. You can't always k/r/c, check every turn card.
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Old 09-22-2017, 08:02 AM   #1454
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

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If you play this hand, you're pretty much committed to showing this down, aren't you?
I'd shove 66 readless there. Calling preflop and check folding the flop would be the exception, which I would only do with a good read vs very passive players. There's no such thing as "committed to showing down" when you're drawing to two outs at bad odds.

Quote:
do you do better by pushing now?
I think so in the vast majority of cases.

Quote:
With 11 BB in your stack, your M is less than 4, and your stack is on life support. You pretty much should be shoving any hand you play,
I call some hands in the big blind situation presented above. Basically it's done with hands that are too strong to fold yet too weak to shove. It's a small number of hands that I'll call. Antes help the cause here.

Quote:
you've just got a completely different perspective
I think this is true. You seem to be focusing on winning a few extra pots and stealing a little bit of equity by making better hands fold. Unfortunately, your opponents are aware of the stop n go play and they'll see right through it when you donk shove the flop. Hint: you should probably check raise or check call all in with strong hands there on the QJ2 flop. Do you see how this takes away value from the stop n go?

Instead of thinking of how to achieve your goals of winning a few extra pots and stealing a little bit of equity, you should be thinking about the bigger picture and how to construct a solid strategy as a whole. This all starts with thinking about the size of your investment relative to the blinds and antes. It's the most basic poker principle of measuring risk/reward.

I believe that's the path to winning more tourneys.
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Old 09-22-2017, 08:20 AM   #1455
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

My apologies for all the no limit content. Here's some random no content stuffs as penance:

I like coffee, a lot.

Oh good morning.

311 big bet downswing?

Last week I value bet ATo unimproved vs a 2+2er heads up out of position on the river and scooped.

Shoutouts? ok:

Unguarded? where u at?

rodeo? sup bro

ZekeFerrari? who the f knows

KitCloudKicker? miss u

um that's all I got for now.

------

Did I say good morning?
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Old 09-22-2017, 11:17 AM   #1456
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

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Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
I think this is true. You seem to be focusing on winning a few extra pots and stealing a little bit of equity by making better hands fold. Unfortunately, your opponents are aware of the stop n go play and they'll see right through it when you donk shove the flop. Hint: you should probably check raise or check call all in with strong hands there on the QJ2 flop. Do you see how this takes away value from the stop n go?
If they're getting it all in no matter which way things go, then it literally doesn't matter which way it's played. I absolutely shouldn't care whether they "see through me" or not because it's all going in anyway.

Also, your suggestion of check-calling or check-raising seems to suggest that you're not paying any attention to stack size in this conversation.
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Old 09-22-2017, 11:21 AM   #1457
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

I thought we were talking about short stack situations, which make up most of our decisions in tourneys.

We would need to be quite deep in order to check fold QTo on the QJ2 flop. Donking the flop there would be quite bad imo no matter the stack depths.
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Old 09-22-2017, 11:24 AM   #1458
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

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I absolutely shouldn't care whether they "see through me" or not because it's all going in anyway.
I think you should care that you're donking your tourney life into a preflop raiser that holds a range vs range equity advantage, with quite a weak hand. I'd rather check fold and save my 8bb, or check call and hope to catch bluffs.
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Old 09-22-2017, 12:03 PM   #1459
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

Good morning Bob.
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Old 09-22-2017, 12:36 PM   #1460
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

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Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
I call some hands in the big blind situation presented above. Basically it's done with hands that are too strong to fold yet too weak to shove. It's a small number of hands that I'll call. Antes help the cause here.
Yabbut with antes our M is even smaller, something like 2. We should be shoving here unless the villain is a skinny old guy who hasn't played a hand since the paleolithic.

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Last week I value bet ATo unimproved vs a 2+2er heads up out of position on the river and scooped.
Kicker goot!
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Old 09-22-2017, 12:48 PM   #1461
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

haha.

Quote:
Yabbut with antes our M is even smaller, something like 2. We should be shoving here unless the villain is a skinny old guy who hasn't played a hand since the paleolithic.
Right, this does make us shove wider, but it also allows us to see flops at a decent price with seemingly bad hands. For example:

bubble time 3 pay 4 left. I have 8bb after posting my bb and ante. I'm the shorty vs 3 medium stacks of 15-25bb. Antes make for about .8bb extra in the pot.

fold, button raises 2x, small blind folds and it's on me in the big blind with 76s. I think shoving would be pretty bad here, as would folding. I'm getting 4.3:1 to flop something decent.

"but then you only have 7bb left if you miss?!"

So? I've come back to win tourneys from worse spots. Just the other day I won a freeroll. I made the final table, lost some big pots and was left with literally 1.7 big blinds. Four shoves in a row later and I'm chipleader. Went on to win it. /worthless anecdotal evidence? or: /undeniable ev as part of my winrate. I think it's the latter.
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Old 09-22-2017, 12:55 PM   #1462
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

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Originally Posted by AlwaysFolding View Post
Good morning Bob.
What up? I'm curious to know the story behind your undertitle.
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Old 09-22-2017, 01:08 PM   #1463
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
I thought we were talking about short stack situations, which make up most of our decisions in tourneys.

We would need to be quite deep in order to check fold QTo on the QJ2 flop. Donking the flop there would be quite bad imo no matter the stack depths.
I'm becoming increasingly convinced that you don't understand the situation being described. I recommend you take a step back and try to actually construct a scenario under the given parameters to demonstrate that you know what you're talking about.
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Old 09-22-2017, 01:09 PM   #1464
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

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I think you should care that you're donking your tourney life into a preflop raiser that holds a range vs range equity advantage, with quite a weak hand. I'd rather check fold and save my 8bb, or check call and hope to catch bluffs.
You're not really addressing anything meaningful with this comment.

You were presenting the case that you were just shoving preflop. So I don't know why you should feel any different about a blind stop-and-go if it's all going in anyway. I don't know why you're talking about some sort of equity advantage (edit: for the raiser) if you're shoving preflop.

Last edited by Aaron W.; 09-22-2017 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 09-22-2017, 01:14 PM   #1465
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

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So? I've come back to win tourneys from worse spots. Just the other day I won a freeroll. I made the final table, lost some big pots and was left with literally 1.7 big blinds. Four shoves in a row later and I'm chipleader. Went on to win it. /worthless anecdotal evidence? or: /undeniable ev as part of my winrate. I think it's the latter.
"I once shoved four times in a row and became chip leader."

This is kind of cringe-worthy as an argument from someone who I think knows better. It doesn't actually address anything relevant.
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Old 09-22-2017, 01:19 PM   #1466
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

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Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
You're not really addressing anything meaningful with this comment.
I'm showing you why the stop n go sucks. Once again, my imperfection keeps you from actually thinking about poker while you try to poke holes in logic.

Quote:
I don't know why you're talking about some sort of equity advantage if you're shoving preflop.
Because if I was somehow forced to call preflop with 66 and 11 big blinds, I would definitely not shove the flop because of the bit you quoted. You're allowing bad hands to fold and good hands to call, with your tourney life at stake.
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Old 09-22-2017, 01:20 PM   #1467
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

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Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
"I once shoved four times in a row and became chip leader."

This is kind of cringe-worthy as an argument from someone who I think knows better. It doesn't actually address anything relevant.
Right. I might as well have just closed the computer after becoming the short stack. Oh well.
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Old 09-22-2017, 01:28 PM   #1468
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

A relevant nsfw joke imo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueEyhmdxeV0
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Old 09-22-2017, 01:35 PM   #1469
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

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I'm showing you why the stop n go sucks. Once again, my imperfection keeps you from actually thinking about poker while you try to poke holes in logic.
You're showing why it sucks in a completely unrelated scenario. It's a stupid argument.

Quote:
Because if I was somehow forced to call preflop with 66 and 11 big blinds, I would definitely not shove the flop because of the bit you quoted. You're allowing bad hands to fold and good hands to call, with your tourney life at stake.
Yeah. Your analysis is approaching worthless. If you have to change the scenario to make your argument work, it's probably without merit in the current scenario.
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Old 09-22-2017, 01:35 PM   #1470
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

Maybe if I make a mathematical statement, Aaron can understand my position; the English language apparently is too complicated.

66 pre with 11bb vs 3x btn raise = shove>>>call/checkflopanddecide>>>>>>>stopngo
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Old 09-22-2017, 01:37 PM   #1471
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

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Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post


Yeah. Your analysis is approaching worthless. If you have to change the scenario to make your argument work, it's probably without merit in the current scenario.
You haven't presented a single concrete scenario. So which scenario are you referring to?
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Old 09-22-2017, 01:37 PM   #1472
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

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Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
Right. I might as well have just closed the computer after becoming the short stack. Oh well.
Yup. This is a completely meaningful interpretation of my statement and 100% relevant.

Best of luck to you. I'm not going to play the game of increasing inanity with you. You have failed to present either an argument or a counterargument of merit. You have demonstrated an inability to deal with the particular scenario at hand.
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Old 09-22-2017, 01:41 PM   #1473
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

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Let's say that there's a late position open-raise to 3x. You're sitting on 11 BB in the small blind. You believe that your opponent's open-raising range is big enough that 66 is ahead.
Pretty sure this was the only scenario presented. So how am I changing the scenario?
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Old 09-22-2017, 01:41 PM   #1474
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

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Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
You haven't presented a single concrete scenario. So which scenario are you referring to?
LOL -- It's the thing you quoted in post #1454.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
I'd shove 66 readless there. Calling preflop and check folding the flop would be the exception, which I would only do with a good read vs very passive players. There's no such thing as "committed to showing down" when you're drawing to two outs at bad odds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
Let's get into the details of this, because I can't tell if you've just got a completely different perspective or if you're addressing the wrong scenario.

Let's say that there's a late position open-raise to 3x. You're sitting on 11 BB in the small blind. You believe that your opponent's open-raising range is big enough that 66 is ahead.

If you play this hand, you're pretty much committed to showing this down, aren't you? Calling to see the flop and giving up leaves you with only 8 BB and you're pretty deep in push-fold territory.

If you shove preflop, your opponent will be looking at a pot size of 15 and needing 8 BB to call. That's about 2:1 and, especially since it's an all-in, he's just got to estimate your pushing range. Overall, the price isn't that bad. It's an all-in with no reverse implied odds against a short stack, so he might call a good amount of the time, even with somewhat weaker hands. (Of course, this becomes more true as his stack gets larger, making the relative risk smaller.)

But let's say you call the raise and push every flop. After your flop call, the pot size is 7 BB. Your push is a pot sized bet. The unpaired hands in his range are likely to have missed the flop (roughly 2/3 of the time), and you were almost certainly flipping against those hands preflop. But I don't think he's calling a pot sized bet with nothing. So you've now managed to win a fair number of pots you would have otherwise lost. You will *still* lose to most of the other hands as well as hands that paired up on the flop, but you would have lost to those in a preflop shove scenario anyway.

I'll admit to not having seen a lot of numbers on these types of scenarios. I don't have enough tournament experience to have a good sense of the types of opening ranges you might be facing at these times. So here are the places I could be wrong:

* 66 is ahead of villain's range.
* 66 is a hand to be committed with with an 11 BB stack.
* Villain will call a preflop push with a wide range of hands.
* Villain will not call a pot-sized push with a wide range of hands on the flop.
Sorry, but you have earned a very special place in my perspective of someone who cannot be trusted to perform a fair analysis. You're too interested in proving yourself right against me for some reason, and it means that you're becoming intellectually dishonest. That's not something I'm going to have any patience with.
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Old 09-22-2017, 01:43 PM   #1475
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Re: 2017 ustakes NC, where the steaks are wafer thin (Low Content Thread)

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If you play this hand, you're pretty much committed to showing this down, aren't you?
Sure, you can do that if you hate money.
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