No reversal with Effient. Also, will no longer be taking it since I'm 5 years out from the stents. Discharged from hospital today and now in rehab til about Saturday.

Do they start giving you booze again in rehab?

Well, had one of the few unfortunate dealer incidents at my regular room today. Generally it is very well run and the dealers are top notch, but this annoyed me.

Board on the turn is AAJ6ddd. I bet with A4, Asian guy who acts very quickly calls, older guy who I know well and am friendly with raises. I call, Asian guy back raises and old guy calls. He generally has his faculties, but he isn't always 100% there if you know what I mean.

River is another 6, I bet, Asian guy quickly folds and the old guy grabs a stack of 8 chips, moves them about a foot out and past the racetrack line (it isn't a betting line) and drops them to the felt but doesn't release them. I look over and he seems a bit confused and is muttering something to himself. I know what is about to happen, so I look at the dealer and she is mid-conversation with the one seat and not really paying attention. By the time she notices something is up, the old guy has slowly slid his chips back to his stack.

Dealer says something like "what is happening" so I go with "I think he already called". She says that "she didn't see it" and then after a long pause where the old guy still hasn't acted she says "you don't really want me to call the floor for that, do you?"

Am I wrong in thinking this is totally out of line? I am a regular in this game, as is the old guy. I really would prefer that she takes ownership of clarifying the action as opposed to putting me in the spot of "demanding" my eight chips.

I'm a little confused by the action. Is it really 8 chips just for a call? Seems like that would be a raise in almost all structures.

And how did you know what was about to happen? This guy often calls / raises but then takes it back?

In almost all structures 8 chips on the river is a raise?

Really?

Are we back to the only game you've ever played in your live is 2/4 LHE or 10/20 LHE w/ $5 chips?

This almost feels like déjá vu with you.

You should've just indicated what motion the old guy did (simulate if necessary), and then ask her what that action means. You shouldn't interpret what that means, that should be up to the cardroom rules.

That is actually what happened next - I reenacted it for her and while all this was playing out old guy took the opportunity to fold.

Lol, I did get confused here, it certainly could just be just a call. But the post was legitimately confusing otherwise though, which contributed.

Has he done anything like that before? If not, I'd just let it slide this time, but put him on notice by saying something like, "If you move your chips out like that, it's a call. Be careful next time or you might get forced to put the chips in."

If he has a history of sketchy things, I ask that the dealer call the floor.

I'd tailor my response to the dealer bec you're going to get different rulings from different floors on different days, as we all know. This sort of thing happens in my games often enough to irritate me. If it's a great dealer that let one slip I don't say anything. If it's a bad dealer that says 'what is happening' I say ' you should ask the dealer what is happening.' If they are dumb enough to talk back I've got more.

Him folding is a clear sign that he was angling you. If he were generally confused he would have held onto his hand.

Best wishes ldo.

I'm gonna go shoot all the angles tomorrow at Canterbury I think. Too bad I missed the day or two of 3 omaha tables and 2 10/20 mix running due to that whole education nonsense.

I re-read your original post and and still don't understand what actually happened at the table.

If he's genuinely confused and not trying to angle or be a wiseass, I let him fold. Otherwise I yell for the floor. It sounds like a forward motion room, right?

Either way it's a great opportunity to not tip, and if you get a funny look, explain that you tip dealers that pay attention.

Sorry to hear about your troubles. Glad to hear you're on your way home. Hope you have a swift recovery.

Yeah I wouldn't say a thing, both for or against him putting the $ in, since there's nothing in his history that indicates he's an angle shooter.

I wouldn't tip the dealer here, as well.

Every angleshooter has a first time, and I think him folding is a clear sign that this is his.

I mean he could just as easily have, like, a jack high flush, and not noticed the board double paired until after his forward motion, and may not be symbolic of a future tendency.

But that doesn't change that folding after doing so is an angleshoot.

Not being from a "forward motion means a bet" card room, maybe I'm missing the true issue with this angle? Around here, people go forward with chips all the time. It isn't a bet until they release it, iirc. I think in our rooms having calling chips in your hand in the middle, looking at the board, and then pulling them back and folding would just be fine. Is the issue that in your rooms moving chips forward onto the table indicates a call, and that the dealer screwed up not enforcing that rule? I could see the angle if A) there is a hard and fast rule about moving chips and B) if he was somehow looking to see how you reacted to the chips going in.

It sort of seems like by trying to convince the dealer to make the call stand that you told him that he was 100% beaten and should fold if he could. The question to me about angle is around "using the letter of rules to get something you want that is outside the spirit of the rules." Like knowing that moving chips = call. Your take is that the old man basically stole chips that were in legally the pot and pulled them back?
The dealer should be paying attention to the action in the hand. End stop. That's her job.

My take would be that he's deciding whether to call and his chips are/aren't in the pot. Dealer gets done talking and says "what's up?" I'd just ask the question back to her, "you tell me, is it over yet?" If there is a firm rule that what he did was calling, then if you think the dealer is wrong (or there's any ruling) the floor should be called. Easy to say here, because the 30 game is right next to the podium. The bad thing to me is the dealer. She's supposed to be keeping the game going maybe even with "sir, it is a bet of X, do you call?" The fact she isn't aware of whether or not he did? Stinks.

We used to have this one friendly dealer that most people liked. He always knew the score of the Avs game and who just made a great pass. The action in the poker game, not as much. He was my least favorite in the box. There was this kid from Vietnam(?) who didn't talk much, but it seemed like 5 more hands per down. The only problem with him was that he shuffled so fast you could hardly see the cards. That's a problem I could live with.

I think it's a good rule because it prevents an opponent from having calling chips in the pot - out of turn - to prevent a bluff. If they have their chips across the line and then you bet, they shouldn't have the option to fold imo.

Forward motion definitely the best rule. It also speeds up the game.

If he had quietly held onto his cards while the decision were being made, or argued with the floor, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, and I would agree with you (aside from the nitpick that he cannot have a jack high flush on an AAJ6ddd board ).

In general, I'm a huge advocate of letting people do what they want. If he had released 8 chips and then immediately yelled "WAIT!" I would be open to letting him take it back, rules be damned. I've done that a few times when it's clear they missed the double paired board or whatever.

But on the "no better friend, no worse enemy" front, I'm equally zealous in striking back at people who deliberately make the game unfun. And when he folds while there's an active discussion about whether he called, it's clear that he was not confused at all.

I agree. But I'm saying that you can't rule it out based on past history.

People change.

Maybe he was lucky and winning for a long time, but now that he's reverted to the mean, he's becoming increasingly bitter. Maybe his wife left him and he hates the world. Maybe he feels like his poker days are coming to an end and just doesn't care any more if he gets a rep as a cheap shot artist. Maybe he's got a neurodegenerative disease and losing his higher reasoning.

And of course, maybe it was an honest mistake.

But if it happened again, I definitely would no longer give him the benefit of the doubt and even this time I'm not incluned to.

THEY should just do what chess tournaments does , when you touch a piece you have to move it .
Should apply it to the chips as well, if you grab chips in your hand you have to put some in the pot , only choosing between a call or a raise .
No more line crossing , angling shoot or w.e !

Yeah I know I play online ...