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Micro-Small Stakes Limit Discussions about micro-small stakes Texas Hold'em (all stakes up to around 15/30)

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Old 12-19-2017, 01:38 PM   #1
DalTXColtsFan
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Flush draw paired board multiway

4/8LHE, typical SSHE table

4 limpers and I have 76s on the button. I call.
SB folds, BB raises, all limpers call, I call.

12sb. Flop comes JJ4 with 2 of my suit.
BB checks, one limper bets, 2 folds and the limper to my right raises.

I'm tempted to 3-bet to try to get them to check to me on the turn. If the flop wasn't paired it would be a no-brainer to 3-bet there, as the villains' actiions tell me they've each caught a piece of the flop, and the pieces are unlikely to be better flush draws.

At the table I was sure that the paired board reduced my equity but I wasn't sure by how much until I stoved it. It's actually significant. If I assume the BB folds to my 3-bet, one of the villains has a jack and the other has either a 4 or a pocket pair, I don't have anywhere near 33% equity.

So is this an easy fold?

If the board were AJ4 with two of my suit, would the action and a history of the raiser being able to raise top pair make a 3-bet a no-brainer here?

EDIT: Just noticed the stove is wrong, it doesn't include all jacks or all 4s, but I when I re-did it it made only about a half percent difference in the equity.

26,540,788 games 12.563 secs 2,112,615 games/sec

Board: Js Jh 4s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 22.346% 22.35% 00.00% 5930939 0.00 { 7s6s }
Hand 1: 71.591% 71.48% 00.11% 18972326 28855.00 { JJ, J2s+, AJo, KJo, QJo }
Hand 2: 06.062% 05.95% 00.11% 1580169 28855.00 { 22+, 42s+, A4o, K4o, Q4o, J4o, T4o, 94o, 84o, 74o, 64o, 54o }


---
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Old 12-19-2017, 03:13 PM   #2
Bill Haywood
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Re: Flush draw paired board multiway

Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
the villains' actiions tell me they've each caught a piece of the flop, and the pieces are unlikely to be better flush draws.
Why assume this? I think the weakness of our flush draw is a major consideration.

The raise cinches my fold.

You could easily pay a lot more to keep drawing. The raiser could easily have a draw or paired the low card and an EP may wake up raising his jack.

I like to avoid raisey situations where I may still lose after hitting the draw.
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Old 12-19-2017, 09:11 PM   #3
asmitty
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Re: Flush draw paired board multiway

I coldcall flop. You probably don't have 33% equity, but you're also getting 7.5:1 and have the best absolute position.
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Old 12-20-2017, 08:37 AM   #4
SetofJacks
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Re: Flush draw paired board multiway

I call
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Old 12-20-2017, 10:38 PM   #5
DonkeyOnTilt
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Re: Flush draw paired board multiway

I think the notion of auto-3betting 2 flush flops becomes exploitable as you move up in stakes as well so be careful there.
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Old 12-21-2017, 01:00 PM   #6
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Re: Flush draw paired board multiway

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Originally Posted by asmitty View Post
I coldcall flop. You probably don't have 33% equity, but you're also getting 7.5:1 and have the best absolute position.
+1

Also if my flush hits, I'm very wary if I get a lot of action. Best case scenario is that people ragecheck to me - I'm not raising if people are leading into me.
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Old 12-21-2017, 01:11 PM   #7
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Re: Flush draw paired board multiway

grunching

Quote:
Originally Posted by DalTXColtsFan View Post
4/8LHE, typical SSHE table

4 limpers and I have 76s on the button. I call.
SB folds, BB raises, all limpers call, I call.
depending on the blinds and tendencies of the limpers, i tend to raise this hand. it plays SUUUPER well multiway and you can earn a 4 card flop on unfavorable boards. you can also knock out the sb and/or rarely the bb putting in dead money in the pot. this 1/2 bet is almost always worth it. and ftr: i raise any suited 0gapper i'd play here down to 54s.

second, once the bb raises and everybody calls, you can CONSIDER 3b'ing; however, that's not advisable for the most part. if you can be extremely sure bb won't then auto-cap b/c your action is weird, then go ahead, but you don't want to put in 4bets here AND not get a 4 card flop as that really hurts your implied odds, which is what predominately drives the value of this hand.

Quote:
12sb. Flop comes JJ4 with 2 of my suit.
BB checks, one limper bets, 2 folds and the limper to my right raises.

I'm tempted to 3-bet to try to get them to check to me on the turn. If the flop wasn't paired it would be a no-brainer to 3-bet there, as the villains' actiions tell me they've each caught a piece of the flop, and the pieces are unlikely to be better flush draws.

At the table I was sure that the paired board reduced my equity but I wasn't sure by how much until I stoved it. It's actually significant. If I assume the BB folds to my 3-bet, one of the villains has a jack and the other has either a 4 or a pocket pair, I don't have anywhere near 33% equity.

So is this an easy fold?
no. i'd continue here and simply play the odds of the hand. the pot is pretty big now and 2 people have shown interest. the only hands you're really afraid of are 44 and J4. there's only 3 combos of 44 left and if somebody has a jack they almost surely do not have a 4. if this were JJT and it went bet raise raise then yea i'm tossing my flush draw (not sure if even then i toss it for 2 bets in this size pot).

Quote:
If the board were AJ4 with two of my suit, would the action and a history of the raiser being able to raise top pair make a 3-bet a no-brainer here?
no i don't think so. it depends on how big your flush draw is, how many players there are etc. if you have something like Q or K high then yea go ahead and 3b b/c you a) are unlikely to be outflushed, and b) can pick up more equity on the turn w/ a bd straight draw.

Quote:
EDIT: Just noticed the stove is wrong, it doesn't include all jacks or all 4s, but I when I re-did it it made only about a half percent difference in the equity.

26,540,788 games 12.563 secs 2,112,615 games/sec

Board: Js Jh 4s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 22.346% 22.35% 00.00% 5930939 0.00 { 7s6s }
Hand 1: 71.591% 71.48% 00.11% 18972326 28855.00 { JJ, J2s+, AJo, KJo, QJo }
Hand 2: 06.062% 05.95% 00.11% 1580169 28855.00 { 22+, 42s+, A4o, K4o, Q4o, J4o, T4o, 94o, 84o, 74o, 64o, 54o }


---
how in the world can hand 1 have J2s+? and no 44? and how can you be sure he doesn't have 55 or 66 or 77? your ranges here are very weird unless im missing something
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Old 12-21-2017, 01:50 PM   #8
SetofJacks
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Re: Flush draw paired board multiway

Given standard tendencies of small stakes players, I'd say player 2 is more likely to NOT have a jack than to have a jack. Since most villains like to slowplay at these stakes.
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:25 PM   #9
AlanBostick
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Re: Flush draw paired board multiway

Don't three-bet the flop. It will force people out when you'd rather have them in, padding your pot odds.

Don't fold the flop. Your flush won't be good all the time, but it will certainly be good more than one time in 8.
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Old 01-01-2018, 10:28 PM   #10
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Re: Flush draw paired board multiway

Quote:
Originally Posted by SetofJacks View Post
Given standard tendencies of small stakes players, I'd say player 2 is more likely to NOT have a jack than to have a jack. Since most villains like to slowplay at these stakes.
One of the biggest adjustments I had to make when playing higher was that opponents in general stopped with the ridiculous slowplays. It's like you start off at poker and get alarmed at any bet or raise, until you hit a point where you're bet/capping 99 on TT5tt because of your two opponents. Then the good high stakes players print $ by just jamming it up vs habitual flop overplayers.

W/R/T this hand, just call flop and play ABC. Consider bluff raising a turn 4.
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