Are Snowie's solutions even close to nash?

Well I can definitely see how some people think that but correct information obtained slower is better than more/faster disinformation.
We could write an AI tool which would be even quite good but that's not really what we want to do. We want to provide great tool for understanding optimal play, HH analysis and just learning to play. At this point this is actually practical.
It's quite possible that we will solve whole games in near future (like HU CAP is achievable right now, just not our priority). Maybe then we will just serve those solutions from the cloud.

Well... so say you go through scenarios in CREV or in some elaborate equity calculator. Not only it costs you more time but you get some slice of information which you can't really use practically or learn much from it. Even with Snowie input scenario feature it's comparable time, especially bearing in mind that PioSOLVER shows you the whole range/EV for every action and in other case you get "advice" you have no way of assessing. I mean they can feed you w/e and you just have to believe it.

I mean you could really learn to play using this. This is first tool which can answer questions about how to build your range in different spots, what are the best bluffing hands, best bluff catchers. This information wasn't available before anywhere. You could watch a training video with someone going for an hour about vague theoretical concept or you can fire-up a solution and see the whole GTO in 5 minutes. I agree it's not for everybody and certainly not for "volume over all" players but I think it's practical enough.
I can definitely see adding features for making the process even easier though (like importing HH's etc).

Solving the whole preflop game is few months away probably but you can already do a lot of things like calculating preflop ranges (you fire up the solver for 500-800 flops for little , see what hands make money, adjust, repeat). That is not yet available in public release though (unless you are willing to write scripts).

They backtracked those claims and they make it hard to verify anything by not providing strategies/frequencies for whole ranges (so even verifying simple river spot takes a lot of clicking). They have an AI good enough to not fold nuts and look reasonable a lot of the times. That's as much as I can say.

I agree the solutions are far better than snowie, I was just mentioning that you'll have an uphill battle convincing people that it's worth the effort.

I've had flop down solutions for a while now and when made freely available, people just weren't interested. I couldn't convince people to spend much effort looking at solutions.

GTORB hasn't exactly taken off and that has a very nice interface. I think the HM snowie cloud thing is about the maximum effort that people want. Where they could check in an easy way after a session if they made any glaring mistakes in single hands.
Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.

Hi punter!

Currently I'm trying to save a tree. I go to File > Save Tree and then save in my folder. The software freezes for a few minutes (understandable) and then becomes responsive again.

I expect a ~2gb file in my folder but actually there's nothing. Any idea why this happens?

Hi,
If you are talking about commercial version please either pm me here, post in commercial subforum thread or email me at piosolver@piosolver.com
If you are talking about free version then there shouldn't be 2GB tree anywhere in sight
So anyway, pm with some details about the version you are running (or post here/in commercial forum if you prefer)

EDIT: one very quick thing to check which happened to my testers before: please try to make a save in a directory which doesn't have spaces in name or path, so not "Documents and settings\something" but in C:\piosolver-saves
That's the only thing which comes to my mind without a bit more details which version/what tree/which OS you are using.

Thanks, that worked! I was using the commercial version.

Bump. Can't believe you guys are giving this out free. This really is an incredible piece of software.

GUI is definitely ghetto, but once you get used to it pretty simple to use.

Incredible work guys.

What's the difference between the commercial versions?

Yeah, one of those things we didn't think about. It will be fixed obviously sooner rather than later

Well, we are selling a commercial version and we chose to give something useful/educational for free instead of doing trials. We think that's a better model and way easier to handle on our side.

We are still working on it. We've chosen early release root so yeah, now when we got ton of feedback the picture is becoming clearer.

Commercial version solves flops. 2p2 link: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...oldem-1516187/ (it seems people are shy to post there and I end up repeating myself in the emails a lot so it would be nice to get some discussion going).

Yeah sorry, I meant, what's the difference between the basic and pro and edge commercial versions?

Also, is it possible to upgrade from the basic to the pro commercial version? I just ordered the basic version, but I'd like to know I can upgrade for the cheaper price in the future if possible.

Twoplustwo admins will ban me if I keep discussing the commercial version in this thread. Here is the link: http://piosolver.com/pages/product-comparison

Those may change in the future. Right now there isn't much in edge other than a bit faster code and priority support (I will talk to you on Skype and walk you through if needed, especially in the early stage).
This may change in the future. Probably some features will make it only to pro and some only to edge. There will always be an option to upgrade for the price difference + our additional fees (so like 15$-25$)

Sorry, will post in future in the other thread!

hi,
im using the free version and wanted to ask how do i get hero to be ip on turn or river?
thx

Hero/Villain are just names. The solution is calculated for both so it doesn't really matter.
Hero fights uphill battle against the world (OOP) while Villain enjoys privileged position (IP).

That being said, in the newest version of PioViewer (download from free product page) it's possible to change those names in w/e way you like. Click Tools->Configuration, look at the bottom of the option window.

EDIT: Actually I managed to confuse myself. It's not yet in the free version. We will add it soon. Maybe check the download in 1 or 2 days.

Does it work with win 32bit?

As of right now - no.
It's on the to-do but not the highest priority. Flops won't on 32bit until we make some progress on optimization (which won't be soon as GUI/results/tree building are priorities for now).

hi,

where is the difference between this software and gtorb?
Also could you explain the math behind all of this?

I am not very familiar with their product but my understanding is that they focus more on commented solutions, explaining concepts and math side of the game.
We focus on solving games fast.

If you have specific questions about algorithm/verification/what is displayed then yeah (as long as you don't ask me about whole implementation). If you need basic introduction to how equilibrium solving works, what optimal play is then well, GTORB probably will serve you better.

For example I might have a PHP script watching hands that I just played and I want it to call PioSOLVER to automatically generate a solution for a specific type of hand. The PHP would know the ranges and board already...

Well.., everything the GUI can do the solver can do from command line. One option is to go to Tools->configuration->enable logging and then read log.txt which is created to give you some ideas how stuff works.
You would then need to write a program to interact with command line interface. It's a lot of work and it's better to wait till we provide more features if you want it though go ahead.

I did a fairly large tree (smaller than I wanted because I didn't have enough memory for the one I wanted to do), and after it finished my computer slowed down immensely, even after closing the program. Is this indicative of some sort of issue with memory management?

Well, the thing is that if you run a tree which barely fits in RAM (PioSOLVER only allows you to build one if there is enough ram + 150MB buffer it's possible that the operating system is going to use swap file for other stuff, especially if you start instances of other things in this stage of low memory availability. Once the operating system starts using swap file instead of main RAM thing will be slow or freeze.
It usually takes quite some time for Windows to recover to normal RAM usage after that.

My recommendation is:
a)if you are low on RAM don't start potentially memory hungry programs (especially web browsers or new tabs in web browsers) while PioSOLVER is running
b)make sure you close PioSOLVER once you are done (if you don't it will sit there taking few GBs of RAM)

It's also possible for the computer to freeze for few seconds when you save/load the tree as they are quite sizeable.
If you suspect those things are not the issue and there is just something different wrong pm or email me.

Probably just a delay in windows going back from swap files to ram after closing the program. Np, I reset, but I probably could've just waited a little longer.

I noticed with the free turn&river solver that you can't use multiple betsizes at any given decision point in the tree. Can you do this with the basic/pro versions?

You can't (the trees would be humongous).
Some more sizes at some points may happen but full trees with 2-3 bet sizes has to wait until we have few weeks for optimization work which won't be soon.

Would it be possible to at least have 2 sizes on river? For example, in a minraised pot if the player checks back the turn, it would be good if we could give the BB the option to either bet NAI two streets or bet NAI turn, and shove R.