Antneye, PT3 is able to import .txt files from HEM/HEM2, therefore this should work fine in PT4, too.

Good you think this way, 'cause "competition" just released the new version full of bugs/imperfections...
You guys don't want to rush them, trust me, I'm a "competition" user...

The hand history parser remains fundamentally the same in PT4, therefore if you can import from a HEM hand history into PT3, you will also be able to import that same hand history in PT4. HEM was known to alter some hand histories when storing in it's database, therefore if you come across a hand that does not import between the softwares please send it to us and we can try to find a solution. We known that many HM users will want to switch to PokerTracker 4, we are doing our best to make that as seamless as we can for them. It may not be a perfect import, but it will be very close to perfect.

Thank you for that post, not to worry... we do not feel rushed, we want to deliver PokerTracker 4 the right way without interface problems, complex back door methods of getting simple tasks done. We learned an important lesson about delivering a finished product when we released PokerTracker 3, like HM2 it was a total re-write from scratch... and anytime you create a new product it is bound to contain many show-stopping bugs. PokerTracker 4 is a new vision, a new paradigm for poker workflow.... but it is not a total rewrite. We are using our solid PT3 code base to build upon and improve, this strategy makes it much easier to deliver the software tool our users - and players who convert across platforms - expect and deserve. Sure, we have a small group of players who want PT4 NOW and are annoyed we have not delivered PT4 yet... but we would have 1000x that number of angry players if we delivered a buggy PT4 before we completed coding and running tests.

PS: this is pretty exciting news... Ben Lamb has joined our team! More info available on our website(s) of course.

I'm excited about PT4.

Will I be able to graph my stats over time and see how they have changed? I've always wanted to be able to see how my VPIP/PFR/AF/3bet/etc. numbers have changed over time, instead of just viewing a snapshot current average. In the past I've gone through and used date filters to pull different snapshots and get an idea of how these numbers have changed in my play, but it would be totally cool to be able to graph a moving average of these over time, say maybe a "last 5k hand moving average" or something like that.

Forgive me if this has been brought up already. I've tried searching for something related to this and couldn't find anything so I thought this might be a good place to post it.

Good idea? Bad idea? Old idea? Opinions?

i think this is already possible in PT3.

It is - on the graphs tab use the "Sessions Stats" section to graph your stats - for stats like VPIP and PFR you'll want to use moving averages - the larger the average the smaller the swings you'll see (if you pick 10 at each point on the graph will be the average of the last 10 sessions up to that point, if you pick 5 it'd just be the last 5, etc). This will only graph for sessions played but it should give you a very good idea of how your stats have interacted with your winrate over time.

Thanks, that's just about exactly what I was looking for. And don't I feel stupid, I never knew that this was already part of PT3. I'm going to have fun messing around with this. I'm still looking forward to PT4, hopefully they will make even more improvements to the graphing options.

I'm pretty disappointed of HM2, hope PT4 will be available soon...
I don't know anything about marketing but I don't think it is a good idea to wait for too long.
HM2 is out now, with exact the same bugs as the beta version, it isn't nearly complete but it is out.
I doubt people will buy HM2 and PT4...
Just my thoughts guys obv, gl with your software

I too hope there isn't much longer to wait for PT4.

Even PokerStars Scottyy is probably wondering about the usage of "Soon" in this five month old thread (to the day lol, didn't expect that!)

i pretty much agree with the above. put out the beta even if it has bugs, let people get excited and just fix the bugs. i understand they don't want to have the same mistakes as PT3 which ppl complained was very buggy. so its give and take.

while its unknowable whether PokerEV was vaporware or not, that guy failed hugely by not just putting the damn thing out. obviously i'm of the opinion of the software concept "release early, release often"

I kind of agree with previous posters, don't wait until HM2 fix all their bugs, people will not switch after that, and few month is the only time they need to polish the product.

I think if PT4 would come out even as a beta now, many people will give it a try and some might switch.

Two important things to note:

1) While some of the users of our respected applications may want there to be there is a war between the PT4 and HM2 methodologies, we don't see it that way. We don't concern ourselves with HM2 that much, they are two independent tools which appeal to two different types of users with some considerable crossover. I know this may sound strange, but it is true.

2) We are not done developing PT4, and we firmly believe it would be a bad business decision to deliver an incomplete application for a beta. The public Beta stage is for hunting bugs, if we are in bug hunting mode then we wouldn't have the resources needed to finish developing features. Once we are finished developing the core pre-beta features, then it will be time for us to release PT4... but we will not release it until we reach this stage. Our users deserve the best experience, we don't want to deliver a tool with incomplete functionality.


I can assure you that PokerTracker 4 is not vaporware, it is very real... and should be released very soon assuming there are no more unexpected development snags. PokerTracker has a significant amount of hand-picked alpha users, most of whom have switched their full time play to using PT4, they are quietly working with us in the background, we have asked them to not disclose their identity so we can avoid any distractions. Our developers have just completed the last of the major development projects, we are now in the final stages of cleaning up and adding finishing touches before heading to beta. I just personally showed the application in alpha stage to one of the 2+2 management team, I think you can tell from this little tip that it means we are nearing the end game.

With that said, we do not agree with your "release early" philosophy. This development methodology alienates users, case in point the high number of players who swore off using HM2 during their beta stage; this is something we previously also experienced while PT3 was in beta. Please trust us, we have the best intentions for our users, we don't want them to have a negative experience. Of course there will be bugs to fix during the beta stage, but we intend to get all the show-stopping issues out of the way in advance and finish the missing features first before we hand PT4 over to the world.

Its flattering that you are concerned with switching HM users to the PT platform, thank you for that! When we read posts like this, that is how we know we are headed down the right direction.

Let me share a little insight into our philosophy. Players who purchase HM2 and are willing to wait it out until they fix their bugs will probably not be purchasing PT4, its a lost cause. We aren't after that person as a potential user, they are already committed to the HM experience regardless of what PT4 has to offer - and we are ok with that. Instead we are aiming to gain users who have an open mind, and want to use the best tool for their game - regardless of who develops that tool. Think back to when PokerTracker 3 was released, we admit it was still a little rough around the edges and had many issues that needed to be fixed - which we addressed over time. Sadly, some of our initial PT3 customers switched over to HEM because they wanted a solution now, they couldn't wait for our developers to solve the issues. Since that time, a large percentage of the customers who bought both products have come back to use PokerTracker 3... literally every day we get messages from former users who returned to our platform with stories explaining why they returned. If we do our job right with PT4, I think your switching concerns will be addressed ;-)

- TT

Hi, I'm a HEM user who made the switch from PT3 exactly at the moment you are describing above. I'm also, like many, very upset about HM2 release the way it as been. I'm thinking switching back to PT4 but I have a question.

Back in the days when I made the switch I notice that HEM and PT3 didn't count the fold to 3 bet the same way. In PT3, everything that was fold after a 3bet were count as a fold to 3bet and in HEM a fold to 3bet was only count when you were the original raiser. They were some other stats that were different like this. My question is are you calculating the same way the fold to 3bet as your were back in the days (2008)?

yeah, i did not mean to imply this at all, your product looks v good

certainly you guys know what you're doing, and its surely presumptuous of me as well as the other posters to doubt your decisions. i made my comments from the perspective of wanting you guys to succeed. just was tossing out ideas and thoughts regarding things with the best intentions.

keep in mind, with PT3, you could define any stat you wanted, so even if the built in "fold to 3bet" stat performed differently than you expected, you could still create your own stat and calculate it however you wanted to. thats one of the main features that made PT3 so powerful.

Ok thanks didn't know that. I am currently using PT3 on a mac. Is the fold to 3bet calculate when your the PFR as default? And would it be the same in PT4?

Our default HUD has a Fold to PF 3Bet after raising stat, I think this is what you were looking for, yes? If you know of any other similar stats where you would like us to consider a revision of the definition, let us know. If we do not implement you suggestion, we will at a minimum help create an alternative stat for you to install for your own needs. Thats what the custom stats tool in PT3 was for, with PT4 we can do even more thanks to some revisions to the database schema. We are always on the lookout for ways to improve, never assume anything is set in stone - we have very open minds.

aww, thnx!

This is correct - and for some of our users it is the #1 reason why they switched to PT3. In addition when a stat recommendation is submitted by a user that is outstanding, our team will help create the stat and even post it to the Custom Stats repository for other users to download. This is one of the features that makes the PokerTracker ecology so dynamic, we try to build everything with as much flexibility for customization in mind.

Yes this is what I was looking for, thanks.

Is there a place where I can see all the stats definition you have in PT3?

The PT3 stat list is available here

Any chance of getting to see the schema before actual PT4 release?

Obv the software is yours and you can do whatever you want... I just exposed my thoughts...
I was wondering about the "time battle" between HM and PT, because even if you said there isn't a war between this two, actual there is. Both HM developers and PT develovers are struggling to earn money, that's why you are working on those programs, not for fun obviously.
Right now PT4 is not ready even for a beta release and my fear is that, once it will be ready, most HM2 bugs will be fixed and the gap between HM and PT development will be too large...
Again just my thoughts, gl mate

Do you feel like PT3 is a great product right now? I switched to HEM because of all the bugs and annoyances that came with PT3. I still give PT3 a try every few months, last time it was when HEM2 was released. I still feel like it doesnt perform or do things as well as HM1 does.

One of the things I really like about HM1 that they moved backwards (imo) with HM2 is the last hand history viewer at the tables that works extremelly fast and offers all the functionality you would expect from it. Would you say PT4 will offer same performance and match the functionality in this area if not improve it over HM1? (equity, export to txt,2+2 etc., fast browsing through previous hands).

any more preview vids coming?

PokerTracker has a policy of full transparency whenever possible, therefore the schema documentation will be available once the beta is released (exact time frame upon release of the beta is to be determined - we need time to make sure the documentation is accurate). The current schema is available here: http://www.pokertracker.com/products...ase_Schema.pdf

It might shock you to know that the management of HEM and us speak on occasion, we get along just fine. There is no war. Yes, we both want each other's customers, but in the end as long as our respective businesses are thriving we just want what is best for players. Rest assured we knew what HM2's time schedule was, yet we will keep moving along at our pace because rushing our development team will only result in errors. We do appreciate your concern though, its heart warming to know that so many people care about the success of PokerTracker 4 before it has even been released. Thats awesome!

Of course we feel PT3 is a great product right now, but we are developing PT4 to deliver an even better product.

All of the features you just mentioned are included in PT3. We may use different methods of accessing these features than HEM does, but they exist. PokerTracker 3 is a robust HUD and tracking solution that many many many MANY players use to manage their poker workflow daily (did I say many? You would be surprised to know how many copies of PT3 were sold to the masses). Street by street equity is included in the hand history viewer, check to see if you got your money in good while playing using this tool. Also export to 2+2 format is built into the hand history viewer as well. We chose to not use the HUD to take up precious real estate to view the prior 5 hands, but you can do this easily using the hand history viewer as well.

PS: You will see the new way previous hands are addressed in PT4 in the next preview video release (see below)


Hopefully this week, I am personally writing the script for the HUD preview video today!

off topic, but its so funny that we want to share it with you all... did you see "Ben's Lamb" at the WSOP final table? Here are two hysterical videos of his silly antics... the best parts were not broadcast on TV, if anyone has any home made videos of Ben's Lamb, please let us know - I am literally laughing out loud thinking back on how funny he was at Ben Lamb's WSOP Main Event Final Table!




- TT