[HUD] PokerTracker 4 for Windows & Mac OS X - 2+2 Support Thread
I'm not trying to poop on anyone's parade, but I still haven't seen anything that would make me switch from PT3.
Will this program be able to do what SNGWiz does ? Since I bought PT3 in August, should I not purchase SNGwiz, and just wait for PT4 ?
It looks that way, yes. Time will tell though we only have a few minutes of video to go on.
1) It seems to me that the main advantage of having your ICM calculator (ala SnGWiz) integrated with your hand database is to allow you to quickly and easily review hands and construct accurate ranges for opponents based on hands within your database. While there will always be some estimation of ranges required it would be very useful to be able to, for example, review a hand where it folds to you in the small blind and you are considering a push - in constructing a calling range for the BB, scan hands in the database for similar situations (effective stack sizes, number of players remaining in the tournament, called a SB shove from the BB) and construct a calling range based on the hands we have seen. While a large sample would be required to get an exact range it would let us construct the widest range that contains all hands we have seen BB call with, or see whether his range contains gaps (rather than being a strict top x%) - for example he calls any Ax and any suited connected higher than 67s, but doesn't call KJ, KT, QJ type hands.
2) Once you have constructed these ranges, and used the calculator to decide what a +EV shoving range looks like in that situation, it would be useful to be able to export this information to a player note for that player.
3) It was not clear from the video whether you could use the ICM calculator to tell you what a profitable shoving/calling range was in that spot - it looked like you could give it a range and calculate the $EV of the chipstacks, but not say for a given hand what you should do with particular hands. Or was that what the spreadsheet bit did? Speaking of spreadsheets, will we be able to export these in Excel format or something similar?
4) Is the quiz function based on hands from your database, or are they "invented" either on the fly or by the developers? It might be nice to have the option to review hands from your database in "quiz" format, either by marking hands to be added to the "quiz pool" or by selection at random based on filter criteria (number of players, stack sizes, position etc).
5) Speaking of player notes, it would be useful if we could link from a player note to a particular hand history within the database - that way instead of having to make a note about how a particular hand was played, I could click on a link in the note to open the replayer and see the hand as played.
6) "Red line" graph (ICM $EV adjusted tournament winnings)?
First, I believe PT3 has some issues regarding EQ for multi-way pots, to name but one. How does PT4 resolve this. Second, will we be able to generate a report that simply does a +- on EQ for a particular hand. In this I'm thinking of tourney players getting all-in plays right.
I'm afraid we will not be including a +/- equity report as requested. In PT3 we only show street by street equity in the Hand History Viewer and the replayer for this reason because hot and cold equity as a stat alone is not relevant without correlation to the size of the pot (and the effective stack sizes for implied odds). For example, say you were in a 3 way pot where you were you had 1/3 equity vs. your opponents actual hands but the pot was laying you .8:1 to call, then calling would be an error even though the hand equity shows that you are running even vs. your two opponents. Additionally you may be correct to call vs. the range of hands your opponents are mostly likely holding, while vs. the actual hands you could be a huge dog. This is of course an overly simplistic explanation; let me know if you need us to elaborate.
Impressive, but I've never been a fan of ICM after I learned it is based on an assumption ("A player's chances of winning the tournament equal his share of the total chips.") that I find difficult to ascribe. Perhaps if chip accumulation was linear ICM would make more sense to me, but for those who live by ICM, have at it.
Will SnGs be identified as SnGs and not MTTs? Can someone provide a breakdown of the naming schema? That would provide a raft of information without giving away trade secrets. It would also allow us to provide additional feedback like "oh oh, what about doing this!". eg, will we be able to source HUD data from specific SnG/MTT types?
Because there are so many tournament types available, creating the nomenclature for defining each tournament type was rather complicated. For example SNGs come in many flavors, including multiple table sit n gos such as PokerStars 180s therefore both multiple table and single table SNGs exist. Conversely it is possible to have a single table tournament that is not a sit n go - see how complicated this can get if the information about the tournament is not provided by the poker site?
If the tournament type is not included in the hand history (not all sites include summaries) the tournament detection system cannot determine if you are playing a SNG or a normal tournament. Our solution to this complicated situation in PokerTracker 3 & 4 is to assign each tournament a type with the options of STT or MTT (single table or multi-table), along with a series of flags such as SNG, DON, Bounty, Shootout, etc. The Flag is what determines if a tournament type is a SNG or not, in PT3 the way you can filter for a tournament Flag is by using the Global Filters, in PT4 it is much quicker thanks to the addition of QuickFilters in the left hand frame.
Long story short, we do the best we can with the limited tools given to us by the online poker sites. The naming schema is available in the Edit Tourney Results window in PT3 & 4. PT doesn’t have the ability to determine if a tournament is a SNG in some situations that are outside of our control due to flaws in the hand history formats. Sorry we cannot any better, we are at the mercy of the data available to us. If you would like to see how the quickfilters list tournament options in PT4, I recommend looking at the PokerTracker 4 feature preview video #3 - the quickfilters are in the background in many shots.
hope this helps!
Here are some comments about PT3 that I hope will be improved in PT4:
We need much more responsive UI:
- Hud changes should be instant, if not possible:
make a loading text show up, or populate hud field by field so we can see something happening, instead of freeze like behavior
- resizing window doesn't refresh content, how could that ever got out of PT3 beta is mind blowing. For example graph on Graphs tab, only way to resize it is to click Hide/Show configuration button on the right, but its not handy because buttons are covered by edge if window is resized! IT should either be stickied to right side or top, or have graph resize on fly. Same goes for all other tabs.
- Colors of background in tables are too white, I cant tell when things are selected. If I select a Date/Hand/Session, I want to see it selected.
- Having 5 different tabs that show winnings is not really awesome.
For example Session and winnings could be in same tab if sessions had option for days/months. Would be better with 1 tab for this and then 5 different views to show different things.
(I noticed this was improved in PT4 video)
- Then there is details tab, which is something from PT2, but it's not really useful, looks like a wall of text.
- PT3 Summary tab - clicking on a player does nothing, I would like to see:
- option to see all his hands
- ability to add note
- Not just on summary tab, things should be clickable and provide a nice feedback in a form of highlight/border when you choose something. (make all those colors customizable would be a huge plus in my book)
I switched over to HEM after my trial ran out originally, but these were the things that annoyed me the most. I will try to write down more things if it's of any help.
We need much more responsive UI:
- Hud changes should be instant, if not possible:
make a loading text show up, or populate hud field by field so we can see something happening, instead of freeze like behavior
- resizing window doesn't refresh content, how could that ever got out of PT3 beta is mind blowing. For example graph on Graphs tab, only way to resize it is to click Hide/Show configuration button on the right, but its not handy because buttons are covered by edge if window is resized! IT should either be stickied to right side or top, or have graph resize on fly. Same goes for all other tabs.
- Colors of background in tables are too white, I cant tell when things are selected. If I select a Date/Hand/Session, I want to see it selected.
- Having 5 different tabs that show winnings is not really awesome.
For example Session and winnings could be in same tab if sessions had option for days/months. Would be better with 1 tab for this and then 5 different views to show different things.
(I noticed this was improved in PT4 video)
- Then there is details tab, which is something from PT2, but it's not really useful, looks like a wall of text.
- PT3 Summary tab - clicking on a player does nothing, I would like to see:
- option to see all his hands
- ability to add note
- Not just on summary tab, things should be clickable and provide a nice feedback in a form of highlight/border when you choose something. (make all those colors customizable would be a huge plus in my book)
I switched over to HEM after my trial ran out originally, but these were the things that annoyed me the most. I will try to write down more things if it's of any help.
1) It seems to me that the main advantage of having your ICM calculator (ala SnGWiz) integrated with your hand database is to allow you to quickly and easily review hands and construct accurate ranges for opponents based on hands within your database. While there will always be some estimation of ranges required it would be very useful to be able to, for example, review a hand where it folds to you in the small blind and you are considering a push - in constructing a calling range for the BB, scan hands in the database for similar situations (effective stack sizes, number of players remaining in the tournament, called a SB shove from the BB) and construct a calling range based on the hands we have seen. While a large sample would be required to get an exact range it would let us construct the widest range that contains all hands we have seen BB call with, or see whether his range contains gaps (rather than being a strict top x%) - for example he calls any Ax and any suited connected higher than 67s, but doesn't call KJ, KT, QJ type hands.
3) It was not clear from the video whether you could use the ICM calculator to tell you what a profitable shoving/calling range was in that spot - it looked like you could give it a range and calculate the $EV of the chipstacks, but not say for a given hand what you should do with particular hands. Or was that what the spreadsheet bit did? Speaking of spreadsheets, will we be able to export these in Excel format or something similar? .
4) Is the quiz function based on hands from your database, or are they "invented" either on the fly or by the developers? It might be nice to have the option to review hands from your database in "quiz" format, either by marking hands to be added to the "quiz pool" or by selection at random based on filter criteria (number of players, stack sizes, position etc).
5) Speaking of player notes, it would be useful if we could link from a player note to a particular hand history within the database - that way instead of having to make a note about how a particular hand was played, I could click on a link in the note to open the replayer and see the hand as played.
It's in there - except we will no longer be using the term EV, because the stat does not meet the true definition of the term Expected Value. More on our new terminology soon…
Great questions & requests, questions of this caliber help shape our vision for PokerTracker 4. We couldn't do our jobs without questions like these, thanks!
The one thing I can add from your post is that HUD performance is based on three factors - the size of your database, the speed of your computer (processor, hard drive, and memory allotted to PostgreSQL), and the inclusion of custom stats (an abundance of custom stats might affect performance, but this also depends on many factors that are beyond the scope of this post). The new Vector HUD engine has some great performance boosts, people used to PT3 will be really impressed with how far we have come, and we also predict that players switching from HEM should be blown away by the differences -our HUD plan has been to remove as much of the visual chaos as possible in PT4. We do a lot of load balancing behind the scenes to assure your in-game performance is as good as possible, our #1 goal is to avoid interfering with your in-game experience while enhancing your decision process. For example in PT4 we populate the HUD popups after a very slight delay when each player is first opened, this is to help balance performance and to assure that on-table HUD performance for massive multitablers is not affected. This slight delay is too short to interfere with your game but long enough to allow us to get a performance boost from the PostgreSQL server.
PS: We implement these performance tweaks across platforms, we are developing for Windows and OS X at the same time - nobody else does this; only PokerTracker. I think this speaks volumes about our development team, once the PT4 beta is released you should give it a try to see for yourself - in the end only you can decide - we of course hope you like it though! I think you will find that we aim to make the use of PT4 as simple and intuitive as possible, while never removing the power underneath.
Also add cooler EV graphs to some standard cooler spots. Like set vs set, AA vs KK, AA vs QQ, AA vs AK, KK vs QQ, KK vs AK, flush vs flush, top2 vs set, flopped trips vs boat etc..
Add all-in EV + street EV + cooler EV and it would be closer to TRUE EV.
Add all-in EV + street EV + cooler EV and it would be closer to TRUE EV.
I don't think this has already been asked so: will there be an automatic leakfinder? Some of us are a wee bit lazy and don't do 1 hour session reviews with all kinds of filters so it would be helpful to have an automatic leakfinder: something that - on a button click - analyses heros hands based on a certain filter and points out the obvious leaks (folds to often in 3way pots, folds to much to 3bets, folds even though potodds dictate a call etc.). How about it?
Yes, there will be.
Hey, will there be an option in PT4 to organize the data you get on players in tournaments, by blind-intervals? In PT3 I only see standard "life time" stats (can organize by X last hands only), and "Stats from current tournament blind level only". It would be really awesome if I can organize the stats in "Blind-Groups" .. eg. Pokerstars SNG: Level 1 to 3, Level 4 to 6, Level 7 to 25, it will refresh the stats as the new blind level of w/e I set it to, hits.
Unfortunately your recommendation would not bring the results closer to True EV. It is our policy with PT4 to remain true to the real mathematical definition of Expected Value - no smoke and mirrors, just the facts!
Hey, will there be an option in PT4 to organize the data you get on players in tournaments, by blind-intervals? In PT3 I only see standard "life time" stats (can organize by X last hands only), and "Stats from current tournament blind level only". It would be really awesome if I can organize the stats in "Blind-Groups" .. eg. Pokerstars SNG: Level 1 to 3, Level 4 to 6, Level 7 to 25, it will refresh the stats as the new blind level of w/e I set it to, hits.
Only PokerTracker ships with such a vast array of custom reporting tools, and in PT4 creating these reports is easier than ever before. If you haven't seen our feature preview video yet which covers the creation of custom reports, I highly recommend you check it out - I think you will like what we have to offer, reporting is only limited by your imagination.
@ PokerTracker. Pls check pm.
Got it... will respond when we get a free moment. thnx for the notice.
for PT3 folks -- please notice that the DB is on a SSD and do not offer pointless DB housekeeping tasks.
Please automate bug reporting.
I should be able to restart PT3 after a crash, select a menu item called "file bug report" (or some such) and PT3 will gather all the boiler plate info about my system automatically. I could also use the same menu item before a crash when something is currently not working.
I'm thinking "bug reporting wizard" here that automates bug reporting drudgery. You already have the replayer video thing. Could I make a "bug reporting video" where I explain what is not currently working (microphone and pointing with the mouse)?
Good accurate bug reports from everyone who experiences the particular bug are valuable. If you make doing this easier folks will get you the info you need more quickly.
EDIT: I see a lot of things I suggested in the past are PT4 features ... hopefully the whole custom stats UI is getting a massive overhaul. I should be able to package up a HUD + custom stats and send it to a friend with click of a button. Just give us a .zip file at the click of a button and give me the ability to import this entire zip file at the click of a button (or drag and drop).
I should be able to restart PT3 after a crash, select a menu item called "file bug report" (or some such) and PT3 will gather all the boiler plate info about my system automatically. I could also use the same menu item before a crash when something is currently not working.
I'm thinking "bug reporting wizard" here that automates bug reporting drudgery. You already have the replayer video thing. Could I make a "bug reporting video" where I explain what is not currently working (microphone and pointing with the mouse)?
Good accurate bug reports from everyone who experiences the particular bug are valuable. If you make doing this easier folks will get you the info you need more quickly.
EDIT: I see a lot of things I suggested in the past are PT4 features ... hopefully the whole custom stats UI is getting a massive overhaul. I should be able to package up a HUD + custom stats and send it to a friend with click of a button. Just give us a .zip file at the click of a button and give me the ability to import this entire zip file at the click of a button (or drag and drop).
Just make a way to see my entire hud for that session for specific opponent easily. Also some kinda pop-up configuration for extreme dummies (me) would be nice
Please automate bug reporting.
I should be able to restart PT3 after a crash, select a menu item called "file bug report" (or some such) and PT3 will gather all the boiler plate info about my system automatically. I could also use the same menu item before a crash when something is currently not working.
I'm thinking "bug reporting wizard" here that automates bug reporting drudgery. You already have the replayer video thing. Could I make a "bug reporting video" where I explain what is not currently working (microphone and pointing with the mouse)?
Good accurate bug reports from everyone who experiences the particular bug are valuable. If you make doing this easier folks will get you the info you need more quickly.
EDIT: I see a lot of things I suggested in the past are PT4 features ... hopefully the whole custom stats UI is getting a massive overhaul. I should be able to package up a HUD + custom stats and send it to a friend with click of a button. Just give us a .zip file at the click of a button and give me the ability to import this entire zip file at the click of a button (or drag and drop).
I should be able to restart PT3 after a crash, select a menu item called "file bug report" (or some such) and PT3 will gather all the boiler plate info about my system automatically. I could also use the same menu item before a crash when something is currently not working.
I'm thinking "bug reporting wizard" here that automates bug reporting drudgery. You already have the replayer video thing. Could I make a "bug reporting video" where I explain what is not currently working (microphone and pointing with the mouse)?
Good accurate bug reports from everyone who experiences the particular bug are valuable. If you make doing this easier folks will get you the info you need more quickly.
EDIT: I see a lot of things I suggested in the past are PT4 features ... hopefully the whole custom stats UI is getting a massive overhaul. I should be able to package up a HUD + custom stats and send it to a friend with click of a button. Just give us a .zip file at the click of a button and give me the ability to import this entire zip file at the click of a button (or drag and drop).
Both of these will be included!
Right now in PT3, I'm running a report on villains. I would love to be able to select a villain name in the report and then popup my HUD on villain.
The idea here is I know my HUD stats very well (Kraada's adv HUD customized). I see things in reports and then wonder what some other HUD stats are for this villain. I don't want to put my gazillion HUD stats in each report I run, I just want to bring up HUD stats for villain quickly and easily (e.g. right click and select a menu item).
Whether you just pop up villains HUD all by itself or open the replayer (with HUD) to villains most recently played hand I don't really care.
Currently I go through the tedious task of
EDIT: right click on villain name > menu with "view villain HUD" > sub menu with "player ranges" (one entry for each HUD player range I use).
The idea here is I know my HUD stats very well (Kraada's adv HUD customized). I see things in reports and then wonder what some other HUD stats are for this villain. I don't want to put my gazillion HUD stats in each report I run, I just want to bring up HUD stats for villain quickly and easily (e.g. right click and select a menu item).
Whether you just pop up villains HUD all by itself or open the replayer (with HUD) to villains most recently played hand I don't really care.
Currently I go through the tedious task of
- finding villain in the "player" list, selecting that player
- opening up the most recent hand from the session list
- wait for HUD stats to popup on the replayer (this takes a while)
- view villains HUD stats.
- sometimes the first session doesn't have the number of players I want (e.g. he is playing HU and I want to see his FR stats)
EDIT: right click on villain name > menu with "view villain HUD" > sub menu with "player ranges" (one entry for each HUD player range I use).
+1
Right now in PT3, I'm running a report on villains. I would love to be able to select a villain name in the report and then popup my HUD on villain.
The idea here is I know my HUD stats very well (Kraada's adv HUD customized). I see things in reports and then wonder what some other HUD stats are for this villain. I don't want to put my gazillion HUD stats in each report I run, I just want to bring up HUD stats for villain quickly and easily (e.g. right click and select a menu item).
Whether you just pop up villains HUD all by itself or open the replayer (with HUD) to villains most recently played hand I don't really care.
Currently I go through the tedious task of
EDIT: right click on villain name > menu with "view villain HUD" > sub menu with "player ranges" (one entry for each HUD player range I use).
The idea here is I know my HUD stats very well (Kraada's adv HUD customized). I see things in reports and then wonder what some other HUD stats are for this villain. I don't want to put my gazillion HUD stats in each report I run, I just want to bring up HUD stats for villain quickly and easily (e.g. right click and select a menu item).
Whether you just pop up villains HUD all by itself or open the replayer (with HUD) to villains most recently played hand I don't really care.
Currently I go through the tedious task of
- finding villain in the "player" list, selecting that player
- opening up the most recent hand from the session list
- wait for HUD stats to popup on the replayer (this takes a while)
- view villains HUD stats.
- sometimes the first session doesn't have the number of players I want (e.g. he is playing HU and I want to see his FR stats)
EDIT: right click on villain name > menu with "view villain HUD" > sub menu with "player ranges" (one entry for each HUD player range I use).
Although you propose a good idea, the use of the HUD as described will not be included in PT4 due to the way HUD resources need to be allocated (live games are the priority for obvious reasons) but that is ok since the custom report solution is a better option once you get used to the changes. On a related note, Kradda has been working on a new HUD design with our team & external player consultants which will blow you away - it is hands down the best popup design we have ever seen featuring new stats which match the way players think. We cannot disclose the design yet, but I can assure you it will change the way you think about the use of a HUD in-game.
OK. Kraada rocks as a HUD designer!
FYI: the reason I'm asking for HUD popup in reports is because I'm very practiced and looking at these stats together (I do it each time I play). I play a lot and study very little. My brain is trained to use the HUD.
I realize from your post that you are not going to to this soon but please give it serious consideration for the long term.
I also look forward to a greatly improved HUD editor. (Again, not necessarily in the first release) A WYSIWYG drag and drop interface would be welcome, as would my earlier suggestion (kraada will remember) for a standardized "color to value" range pallete that will make colorizing other stats easier.
I look forward to trying the beta ASAP. Please (if you have not already) give thought as to how I can easily import hands into both PT3 and PT4 during this period. E.g. can I point each at the others "i'm done with importing this file" directory so they both can slurp of the same HH going forward.
FYI: the reason I'm asking for HUD popup in reports is because I'm very practiced and looking at these stats together (I do it each time I play). I play a lot and study very little. My brain is trained to use the HUD.
I realize from your post that you are not going to to this soon but please give it serious consideration for the long term.
I also look forward to a greatly improved HUD editor. (Again, not necessarily in the first release) A WYSIWYG drag and drop interface would be welcome, as would my earlier suggestion (kraada will remember) for a standardized "color to value" range pallete that will make colorizing other stats easier.
- the user defines a range of values to color palette (e.g. as appears in the kraada adavanced HUD). Obviously you ship some predefined range/palettes.
- the user can then say "colorize stat A using stat B and palette C".
- any number of "range to color" palettes can be defined.
I look forward to trying the beta ASAP. Please (if you have not already) give thought as to how I can easily import hands into both PT3 and PT4 during this period. E.g. can I point each at the others "i'm done with importing this file" directory so they both can slurp of the same HH going forward.
Its a team effort, but he has a very heavy hand in this matter.
Part of the issue is computer resources, our software must work flawlessly on the widest range of computer setups, for example we have people still using Windows XP on 5 year old hardware with the minimum amounts of ram 4 tabling - all withing a virtual machine while using Linux... insane, but those customers exist and they are just as important to us as the customers with high end computers. As people advance their computing power, it becomes easier and easier to add cutting edge functionality. As we creating the spec for PT4 the developers would weigh out every concept proposed to us, the ones that made the cut were the ones which were most in demand without compromising performance. In due time you might see your proposal integrated, you never know!
Take a look at our press release, a full drag & drop HUD design interface is included, along with an automated positional popup editor for those who want to get fast results. PT4 is moving away from the positional design defaults we had in PT3 because the HUD design has advanced so far that this is no longer the best method - but we maintain that as a possibility by including legacy HUD designs as well.
Please contact Kradda with your proposed color scheme vision, we will take a look at it.
You can already do this with a small amount of modification with PT2 & PT3, or PT3 and any other tracking application, that wont change with PT4... you have the freedom to use more than one application at the same time as long as your import workflow doesn't interfere with the process.
Thanks for the good words!
as would my earlier suggestion (kraada will remember) for a standardized "color to value" range pallete that will make colorizing other stats easier.
- the user defines a range of values to color palette (e.g. as appears in the kraada adavanced HUD). Obviously you ship some predefined range/palettes.
- the user can then say "colorize stat A using stat B and palette C".
- any number of "range to color" palettes can be defined.
Thanks for the good words!
Part of the issue is computer resources, our software must work flawlessly on the widest range of computer setups, for example we have people still using Windows XP on 5 year old hardware with the minimum amounts of ram 4 tabling - all withing a virtual machine while using Linux... insane, but those customers exist and they are just as important to us as the customers with high end computers. As people advance their computing power, it becomes easier and easier to add cutting edge functionality. As we creating the spec for PT4 the developers would weigh out every concept proposed to us, the ones that made the cut were the ones which were most in demand without compromising performance. In due time you might see your proposal integrated, you never know!
Please keep the essential requirements in mind: I want to be able to bring up villain stats for viewing in the HUD format. If you have different, less resource intensive, code the reads a HUD description and presents the data to the user in the same (or similar) layout that would suffice. This presentation does not have the same requirements a HUD has (constant updates, possible screen scraping).
Take a look at our press release, a full drag & drop HUD design interface is included, along with an automated positional popup editor for those who want to get fast results.
PT4 is moving away from the positional design defaults we had in PT3 because the HUD design has advanced so far that this is no longer the best method - but we maintain that as a possibility by including legacy HUD designs as well.
I look forward to a video demonstrating the new UI.
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