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Old 01-31-2011, 11:25 AM   #8376
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krumb Snatcha View Post
Is there a way to filter to see how much you are winning/losing in 3-bet pots??

Also, is there a way to get your HUD to display your opponent's 3-bet/4-bet percentage, but only vs you, not his avg??
Yes, if you use the Filters section and filter for Actions -> Preflop 3-bet OR Facing -> Preflop 3-bet, you'll see your data from all hands where either you or someone else 3-bet and you were involved one way or the other.

It's not possible to display statistics only vs you in the HUD at this point in time. It's a feature we are investigating for potential addition in the future but it puts a lot of stress on the query generation system so it is not yet clear whether it will or will not be feasible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by icallunoob View Post
i think you were right, a LOT of my sessions cross the 12am mark because of happy hour, so maybe thats it....the days i dont play crossing 12am, it seems to be fine and match.
For the record, you can change the time PT3 thinks your day starts at in the Settings section, and then you can avoid this problem entirely (just set the time for a time you're never playing, e.g. 4am).
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Old 01-31-2011, 09:44 PM   #8377
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

Is there a way to add custom colour labels, similar to the ones you find on Pokerstars and Full Tilt. I see its possible on HEM, anyway to do it on PT3?

Basically, on the HUD, have a selectable label that has various colours to choose from. Possibly even the colour of the note symbol would work.
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Old 01-31-2011, 10:54 PM   #8378
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraada View Post
Yes, if you use the Filters section and filter for Actions -> Preflop 3-bet OR Facing -> Preflop 3-bet, you'll see your data from all hands where either you or someone else 3-bet and you were involved one way or the other.

It's not possible to display statistics only vs you in the HUD at this point in time. It's a feature we are investigating for potential addition in the future but it puts a lot of stress on the query generation system so it is not yet clear whether it will or will not be feasible.


Ok, ty Kraada. Is there a way to check your opponents 3-bet/4-bet %age vs you using reports or am I mistaken??
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Old 02-01-2011, 08:29 AM   #8379
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyg2001 View Post
VP$IP and PFR numbers different in PT3 and HEM


I have a VP$IP 12.36 and a PFR 9.92 in PT3 but the same hand sample is 12.6 and 10.1 in HEM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraada View Post
Are the numbers of hands identical? Can you pinpoint any individual hand or session where the numbers differ? If we could narrow down what is going on it would help considerably. We haven't had any complaints about VP$IP or PFR for as far back as I can remember.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyg2001 View Post
These are the screen shots.

......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraada View Post
........

I notice there's a large discrepancy from the big blind - if you filter to BB hands only can we narrow it down to a more manageable size of hands? If you pick a specific day can we get it down to a few hundred hands where we have a discrepancy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyg2001 View Post
I found the one day this month with only a few hands played and had 39 BB hands. When I filtered for action PFR and raise, both showed the same 4 hands. Without the raise filter the PFRs where 10.26% PT3 and 12.1% HEM this seems to show a HEM error in the PFR as 10.26% of 39 is 4.0014.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraada View Post
I'm glad to hear our stats are working out accurately

You'll need to contact HEM to get their issue resolved, of course.

.....
From the HM developers:

VPIP and PFR only include hands where you could have made an action. When it is folded to you in the big blind this would not count towards VPIP or PFR in Holdem Manager. For example, if you play 10 hands of HU poker and out of the 5 times you were the big blind it was folded to you 3 times and the other 7 hands you VPIP'ed 5 times, then Holdem Manager would calculate VPIP as 5 out of 7 = 71%, not 5 out of 10 for 50%. That would be misleading, given you had no chance to play in those 3 hands.
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:36 AM   #8380
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fozzy71 View Post
From the HM developers:

VPIP and PFR only include hands where you could have made an action. When it is folded to you in the big blind this would not count towards VPIP or PFR in Holdem Manager. For example, if you play 10 hands of HU poker and out of the 5 times you were the big blind it was folded to you 3 times and the other 7 hands you VPIP'ed 5 times, then Holdem Manager would calculate VPIP as 5 out of 7 = 71%, not 5 out of 10 for 50%. That would be misleading, given you had no chance to play in those 3 hands.
Why would HEM developers decide to change established and well studied statistics? VPIP and PFR have been defined for 10 years and are widely accepted by the community. These newly defined HEM stats are not VPIP nor PFR and are something entirely new.

By changing them, you are causing confusion among the community and ruining standards that have already been defined and accepted. There is no doubt that improvements can be made but they should come as a newly defined statistic and not as a change to the existing standard.

If you are going to attempt to change a statistic that has been defined for such a long period of time then this should be clearly documented so that it does not cause confusion within the poker community.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:05 AM   #8381
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewits View Post
Is there a way to add custom colour labels, similar to the ones you find on Pokerstars and Full Tilt. I see its possible on HEM, anyway to do it on PT3?

Basically, on the HUD, have a selectable label that has various colours to choose from. Possibly even the colour of the note symbol would work.
That's not possible at this point in time, but functionality like this is planned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krumb Snatcha View Post
Ok, ty Kraada. Is there a way to check your opponents 3-bet/4-bet %age vs you using reports or am I mistaken??
Yes this can be done, though you'll need to define a little more for me what you mean by 'vs you' - do you mean hands you were dealt in and still were yet to act or hands where you'd made one of the raises?
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:23 AM   #8382
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

Why is the HUD forgetful ? I play 6max cash NL games. I have UB configured to 6max and my default seat in the import configuration bit on PT3. I would say around 80% of the time when I join a table, my HUD is all wrong, with the labels all in the wrong place. Like 1-2 seats off. So I move them all around, and click "save layout". Another table I join and same **** happens. It is becoming VERY annoying!
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:33 PM   #8383
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

Please take a look at the Tutorial: Preferred Seating.
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:26 PM   #8384
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

fozzy71, to piggy back on Josh's post. Why would you not create new statistics instead of attempting to redefine 10 year (or older) stats? I'm very interested in hearing the logic of this choice.

Best regards,

Derek
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:32 PM   #8385
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

Seems like someone's misinterpreting what the other is saying, IMO.

I read what HEM support says as the standard way VPIP/PFR are calculated, but there's some weird language usage in the last part that makes it seem to be something different.

How I read it at least...

Not sure why the guy's having differences in his VPIP though so maybe I misunderstood something. Is that not how PS calcs VPIP/PFR?

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyg2001
I found the one day this month with only a few hands played and had 39 BB hands. When I filtered for action PFR and raise, both showed the same 4 hands. Without the raise filter the PFRs where 10.26% PT3 and 12.1% HEM this seems to show a HEM error in the PFR as 10.26% of 39 is 4.0014.
Is this seriously how PT3 calcs it? Instances/hands and not instances/opportunities? My head's asploding. Really?

2nd Edit: Please tell me there's not this same logic differential between the two when it comes to 3-betting...

Last edited by Leroy2DaBeroy; 02-01-2011 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:53 PM   #8386
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

I'm trying to add aliases right now. I've added my FTP name, and when I try to add my PokerStars name I get an error message.

It says: You cannot alias a screen name that has played tournaments against the player.

Obviously this is impossible. I'm adding a PokerStars name and a Full Tilt name. It is not possible for them to have played against each other in a tournament.

I would gladly just delete all tournament HHs from my database but I have no clue how to do that. I would imagine that would fix the problem.

EDIT: I have the newest version of PT3 for Mac (Snow Leopard)
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:45 PM   #8387
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leroy2DaBeroy View Post
Is this seriously how PT3 calcs it? Instances/hands and not instances/opportunities? My head's asploding. Really?

2nd Edit: Please tell me there's not this same logic differential between the two when it comes to 3-betting...
PT3 calculates VP$IP & PFR that way (instances / hands) and PT2 calculated it that way as well - that's how they've always been calculated. PT3 could calculate them as instances / opportunities and I believe WhiteRider built these and put them in the repository but since it does make a considerable difference in terms of numbers you see (of up to a few percent depending on the tightness of the tables you're playing at), we saw (and continue to see) no reason to change the defaults in PT3.

Re 3-betting: In response to discussion we did add the Fold to PF 3bet When Raised statistic which is now a default statistic available in PT3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompleteDonk View Post
I'm trying to add aliases right now. I've added my FTP name, and when I try to add my PokerStars name I get an error message.
I responded to your duplicate post on the PT3 forums.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:03 PM   #8388
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraada View Post
PT3 calculates VP$IP & PFR that way (instances / hands) and PT2 calculated it that way as well - that's how they've always been calculated. PT3 could calculate them as instances / opportunities and I believe WhiteRider built these and put them in the repository but since it does make a considerable difference in terms of numbers you see (of up to a few percent depending on the tightness of the tables you're playing at), we saw (and continue to see) no reason to change the defaults in PT3.

Re 3-betting: In response to discussion we did add the Fold to PF 3bet When Raised statistic which is now a default statistic available in PT3.
Meh, it probably doesn't make that big of a difference, but I'd challenge the belief that the way you calculate it is the commonly accepted view. I'll check around and get back to you (not sure if you all care or not).

My 3-betting question is in regards to the hands vs. opportunities and would obviously be much more significant if it wasn't calculated the same across HEM/PT3 (which is why I think it probably is the same). But just to make sure, if I 3-bet 5 times in 100 hands, but I'm only facing raises for 50 of those hands, my 3-bet stat should be 10%, not 5%. Confirm that's correct?
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Old 02-02-2011, 01:38 AM   #8389
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

a couple of questions - can I use PT3 with ipoker with mac? having trouble with this.

also, how can I configure it so that I can have an alias where I can combine usernames on many sites? Thank you.
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Old 02-02-2011, 03:02 AM   #8390
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

Nm, figured out the alias thing - just need help with the ipoker + mac + auto import issue, if this is even possible. I'd rather not buy HEM and parallels.
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Old 02-02-2011, 10:58 AM   #8391
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leroy2DaBeroy View Post
Meh, it probably doesn't make that big of a difference, but I'd challenge the belief that the way you calculate it is the commonly accepted view. I'll check around and get back to you (not sure if you all care or not).

My 3-betting question is in regards to the hands vs. opportunities and would obviously be much more significant if it wasn't calculated the same across HEM/PT3 (which is why I think it probably is the same). But just to make sure, if I 3-bet 5 times in 100 hands, but I'm only facing raises for 50 of those hands, my 3-bet stat should be 10%, not 5%. Confirm that's correct?
It's definitely the way it was always calculated by PT2. So that means we've been using the definition for something nearing 10 years now.

Sorry if I misunderstood the 3-betting question. Yes, 3-bet is calculated out of 3-bet opportunities not total hands. In your example your 3-bet percentage would be 10%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtan05 View Post
Nm, figured out the alias thing - just need help with the ipoker + mac + auto import issue, if this is even possible. I'd rather not buy HEM and parallels.
As our developer said in response to your similar PT3 forum post:

We support importing iPoker hands on the Mac.

However the iPoker flash client does not write hand histories so if you play on a Mac you will not be able to track your stats or get a hud.

When iPoker releases a full Mac client we will definitely support it.
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Old 02-02-2011, 12:47 PM   #8392
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraada View Post
It's definitely the way it was always calculated by PT2. So that means we've been using the definition for something nearing 10 years now.
Per my informal poll of the two forums I mod, how PT3 does it isn't the standardly accepted definition.

Perhaps some more in-depth market research and a change to the way it's calculated?
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Old 02-02-2011, 02:44 PM   #8393
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

Also, move to bb while you're at it, IMO.

Much easier for limit players to adjust their thinking from BB to bb than everyone else to go the other way.
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Old 02-02-2011, 03:12 PM   #8394
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

Let me ask you this question then: Where did the standardly accepted definition come from? If it wasn't from PT2, where did it originate?
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Old 02-02-2011, 03:25 PM   #8395
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

Quote:
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Let me ask you this question then: Where did the standardly accepted definition come from? If it wasn't from PT2, where did it originate?
Rationality? Common sense? How can not having an opportunity to VPIP affect your VPIP and not having an opportunity to PFR affect your PFR?

I don't know the whole timeline behind HEM vs. PT3, who was first with what, etc. but I've been using PT3 (and PT3O) for close to 3 years now and I've never thought it was calculated the way it is.

Am I making a bigger deal out of it than it should be? Yeah, probably, since walks in the BB aren't a super-common occurrence (at least, not at the limits/games I've played)...

Let me ask you this, though... How does PT3 handle non-blind posting where there isn't a PFR?
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Old 02-02-2011, 03:30 PM   #8396
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

At the very least, you should spell this out for HU players (where I'm sure it's probably more impactful).
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Old 02-02-2011, 04:19 PM   #8397
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leroy2DaBeroy View Post
Rationality? Common sense? How can not having an opportunity to VPIP affect your VPIP and not having an opportunity to PFR affect your PFR?

I don't know the whole timeline behind HEM vs. PT3, who was first with what, etc. but I've been using PT3 (and PT3O) for close to 3 years now and I've never thought it was calculated the way it is.

Am I making a bigger deal out of it than it should be? Yeah, probably, since walks in the BB aren't a super-common occurrence (at least, not at the limits/games I've played)...

Let me ask you this, though... How does PT3 handle non-blind posting where there isn't a PFR?
Historically PokerTracker came well before HEM - by a good 3 or 4 years if not more (I don't have the exact dates handy). HEM originally started as a side project because PokerTracker v2 did not have 3-bet statistics (among others).

The original PT2 statistic - the stat that Pokey was using when he wrote this - was VP$IP as it is in PT3. All of our stats are defined in our Statistical Reference Guide, and as I already said earlier the HEM version is available for use from the repository. We've never attempted to make our definitions secret - you can also see every stat's definition in the Configure Statistics window and see how the columns are calculated on the columns tab.

But changing our default - the company's default statistic, the one which 100% became the initial standard and has been calculated the same way since long before I joined 2+2 - does not seem prudent. You get used to certain numbers and get a feel for "styles" which would change if you swapped out the statistical definition.

Regarding your question about a dead blind - a person posting a dead blind is not considered to have VP$IP until they've put some more money in by either calling or raising.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leroy2DaBeroy View Post
At the very least, you should spell this out for HU players (where I'm sure it's probably more impactful).
What else would you like to see us do to help convey this stat's calculation method more effectively?
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Old 02-02-2011, 04:29 PM   #8398
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

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But changing our default - the company's default statistic, the one which 100% became the initial standard and has been calculated the same way since long before I joined 2+2 - does not seem prudent. You get used to certain numbers and get a feel for "styles" which would change if you swapped out the statistical definition.

Meh, just because it's always been done that way doesn't mean it's the better way. And it's not a big enough deal to switch to HEM or be overly concerned with. That said, your custom statistics stuff is confusing as hell. Standardize/make the common ones available in the regular functionality (like FT RB or PS FPP Value) and PT3 as a whole improves, IMO.

Regarding your question about a dead blind - a person posting a dead blind is not considered to have VP$IP until they've put some more money in by either calling or raising.

But that hand goes in the denominator, right? So if you play 10 hands in the CO, post/check/see a flop once, call twice, and fold 7 times, PT3 VPIP would be 20% (2/10) and not 22.2% (2/9) right? That's not accurate either, IMO. And with table-hopping at FR, that's likely to be more understated than the BB scenario (if that's the way it is in fact calculated).

What else would you like to see us do to help convey this stat's calculation method more effectively?

Meh, I know now and I've brought it to the attention of the forums I mod. I suppose this line of discussion in here is liable to reach enough other players that can then disseminate the info as necessary.
.
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Old 02-02-2011, 06:05 PM   #8399
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

Anybody who posts a dead blind then checks certainly had a chance to VP$IP, same as the big blind who checks had a chance to VP$IP. If you could raise and put more money in, I don't see how that's not a chance to VP$IP if that's the definition you want to use.

Even if we were to switch to a "chance to VP$IP" method of calculation, we'd still want CO posters who checked and saw a flop to count as a chance to VP$IP.
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Old 02-02-2011, 08:08 PM   #8400
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Re: PokerTracker v3.08 Official Release (60 day trial)

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Originally Posted by PokerAce View Post
Why would HEM developers decide to change established and well studied statistics? VPIP and PFR have been defined for 10 years and are widely accepted by the community. These newly defined HEM stats are not VPIP nor PFR and are something entirely new.

By changing them, you are causing confusion among the community and ruining standards that have already been defined and accepted. There is no doubt that improvements can be made but they should come as a newly defined statistic and not as a change to the existing standard.

If you are going to attempt to change a statistic that has been defined for such a long period of time then this should be clearly documented so that it does not cause confusion within the poker community.
Quote:
Originally Posted by APerfect10 View Post
fozzy71, to piggy back on Josh's post. Why would you not create new statistics instead of attempting to redefine 10 year (or older) stats? I'm very interested in hearing the logic of this choice.

Best regards,

Derek
I have forwarded your quote's, to Roy and my supervisors. I will forward any replies they have, or ask them to post in this thread.

Last edited by fozzy71; 02-02-2011 at 08:38 PM.
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