Did you even read my post?
Now you know the definition of what a scam means, why do you not think it is a scam?
Please explain yourself clearly.

Again people speculate on other peoples intentions. Go ahead - just makes you look more ******ed.
Do you even know OP and what information are you using to assume that OP won't pay some programmer? I'd like to see that.

Totally agree.

Poker Planer explain yourself....

Hope you are joking about calling it poker planer v2.0. Thatll be plagiarising his brand name which is illegal.

But you are more than welcome to make a competiting product and call it something different. Finally get rid of this business.

I dont know why you bought his dollaro license. He told me not to buy it himself as the other more popular one actually works better. I have a few licenses from him and yes he's somewhat antisocial but you have to think how many tards buy his licenses and ask dumb ass questions day in and out.

@Kardnel:
The point here is NOT, if somebody likes my policy or not. The point is that everybody is told about details BEFORE buying anything. I do my best to let everybody know that a license is bound to a machine and cannot be move or resold.


@BackBlood:
Bobo Fett did get it the way it is. I don't know what is not to understand here. As said, a email is used to find a customers license in cases i'm asked to add additional parts to it (or if someone lost his license and ask me to recover it). A customer may have many different licenses, usually one for each computer he is using and all will usual have the same email in it. A license is a human readable text file. If you open it you see the infos you did enter and some additional hardware codes. The hardware codes in that file bind that licence.txt to the machine.

If you think different, than you are wrong. And all your arguments are based on this assumption are wrong.

Given that this the only software I know of that only allows one install per license, I am actually questioning if what you're doing is even legal. After all, if companies could legally **** over the consumer like this then more would be doing it, right?

I am going to start reading up on the law on this for the USA to get an idea. If someone speaks German and has some time to kill maybe you could look it up for that country as well (though I suspect if this is an illegal business practice in the USA it also would be in Euro countries which have even greater consumer protection laws).

Kind of crazy how some people's moral compass can be so broken to think that this is a reasonable way to treat people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

I changed computers 2 years ago and noelte changed my license.

Just gotta have proof that you are who you are and are not screwing him over by sharing with a friend.

How exactly did you prove it?

Well, I believe I understand it, but what I'm not getting is why you and binbs can't sort this out. You say you can change the email associated with a machine, he says you told him otherwise. If the former is true, it seems like you guys should be able to work this out. If it's the latter, we have a problem.

@Bobo Fett:

I like to sum the process up for you here, so you can make your mind up. (all the story is in the chat logs)

As there are two persons involved in the process, both having licenses form me, i will call the one customer1 (C1) and the other customer2(C2).

A license is a text file containing the parts someone did buy. It has a hardware id in it which does bind the file to a single machine. I can add additional parts to that file later. I cannot disable a once issues license as PokerPlaner doesn't open a internet connection to verify if a license is valid.

1 - C1 and C2 have at least one license from me, even if i atm only know it for sure for C2
2 - C1 contacted me to get the dollaro license.
3 - as C1 has no way to do the payment, C2 did it for him. I believe they are friends.
4 - after the payment, i ask C1 for his "registered mail to add dollaro license to his license", also asking if it's still the same machine, for the case he got a new computer meanwhile (chatlog 13:19)
5 - C1 told me the email which turned out to be the email of C2 (chatlog 13:19)
6 - i added dollaro license to the license file i found based on the given mail and sent it over
7 - than C1 told me the mail he gave me was for his friends(C2) machine and that his (C1) machine is different (chatlog 13:31).

In the dialog it turned out, C1 is very well aware of the "bound to one machine and not to move or resell" fact and quite possible also that PokerPlaner doesn't check licenses online. My only control over a license is binding it to a hardware id.

So, as a fact, C2 has now a license he can use and i cannot disable it.

ATTENTION!!! Following is only a possible scenario, i do NOT claim, it is what actually happend!!!
C1 and C2 are close friends. They use PokerPlaner network converter licenses for a longer time. Now they want to play on dollaro and want to add dollaro to their licenses. So why not trying to get one for free in the process by doing a mistake.
AGAIN, I DO NOT SAY THIS WAS THE CASE


If you Bobo Fett in the end after reading the process really believe i have to (not should) add dollaro to the license of C1 also, than against my own believes i will do so. In this case i like to ask you how i can ensure my interests (copy protection). A online server is not a option for me. And poeple have been using PokerPlaner for free in the past when they got a chance to do so. I feel if C1 goes through with his claim, everybody can tell me the same story in the future and even plan to do it that way.

EDIT: Maybe a solution would be not to ask for a registered mail. Better asking for the license file one person does use. This way if he sends me a license file which in the end is not the one he uses, it's crystal clear this was not a mistake. Right?

Noelte.

The fact that you remember my Back to the Future reference makes you a little cooler in my mind. However i still think your business practice needs a lot more work

I used to work at McDonalds before I started playing poker. Theres a trick that a small % of our customers would use to get some extra food for free. After eating half a burger, they would put a piece of plastic in the burger or a hair and then go back the register and claim that it was there from the beginning.

Now we could choose to respond in two ways. Either not believe the customer and tell him that it was too late cuz we have a no refund policy if youve eaten half a burger or we could smile politely and give them a new one. The second policy is part of the reason McDonalds has had so much success. Their goal is 100% customer satisfaction.

We knew that a very small % of our complaints were people trying to get a free burger, but its what we called "Cost of Operations". You just take the cost once in a while to ensure that your customers are happy.

The people who sell Holdem Indicator do it and they get a lot of business.

I believe that if you follow this model, then yes a small percentage of the time you might get scammed, but overall your customers would be a lot more happy with you and definitely come back for your services.

Ive already heard a lot of complaints from friends on the way you handle business, so why not take this opportunity to improve your services, which Im sure will get you more repeat customers and not anger people who felt that you've cheated them out of money, aka me.

That reference sounded odd in the first place, but only when watching tv, having a glass of red wine, some time to cool down and thinking, i got back to your phrase to check if it was what i was thinking...

No idea how this turns out, this will depend on Bobo Fett responds here, as (no offence intended) i recognize him as someone not involved in this matter and experiences in similar affairs.

To me, the most important thing is trust in what i say. Basically a man a word. I'm not looking for love here or being everybody's darling, that boat has sailed anyway....

Not sure if anyone who don't be in a similar position like me, can understand it. Everything around PokerPlaner i do on my own and i do it in my free time. Adding new features, mails, skype, remote setup support.... so while writing here, i do chat with others on skype..... in the result, i basically have no time. And honestly, i do this for fun and technical interest. If the fun part vanish, i let this project go for good and enjoy my free time otherwise.

My solution to for my time issue is laying out clear rules, things anybody can expect me to do. Some might choose the path with lower resistance, i choose otherwise. These rules are out there to eliminate discussions. As every honest guy out there is offended if he feels not being trusted, i would be too when being in his shoes. But to me, most are unknown and the rules are meant to remove the need to part the good from the bad. But also the world is no "pony hof", especially in the world of no material goods as in my case, copying software is a real issue. Also, as someone i respect in silence( ) put it, some think by paying you some money, they own you. Most out there respect my way, even if they don't like it and call me an a-hole and asocial, but i'm pretty sure they do trust that they get what i tell.

Beside this rules i bind myself too, i'm free to decide when to be nice. For instance last week someone who is playing micro games, got a converter and needed remote setup support. He did end up spending 30% of his bankroll for this. He never complained. As i did remote setup, i recognized his situation, and return the fee for remote setup. A longer time ago, someone got a license for free, for a reason i cannot explain here, but nothing to bring me anything in return.

On the other hand, when someone even slightly insists on some rights, which are outside my rules, i quite often stick to it by the letter. Especially if i feel my work is not respected.

I will enforce my rightful interests, rather than trust in the guys to be good.

After reading this, I created an account here on 2+2 to post my experience with this guy. I think all people here should know this guys business model.

@Binbs:

I m not surprised actually to be honest. I used to be one of his longterm customer, too. I learned about him in the German Pokerstrategy forum. When times got better, I bought a new computer and I asked him to move my license to the new computer.

Well, in the end same story you told. He refused and acted completely indifferent towards me. We talked for hours and in the end he simply stopped responding. I didnt make so much noise in the forum as you did back then. Maybe I should have. But I pretty much accepted my "fate", though i was pretty angry.

In the end I build some of the tools myself (fortunately I know a bit Java) and also relied on other commerical solutions. They also work far better than the tools he provided me with.

All in all, this is simply no way to treat customers. His software looks crappy, he does not even have a proper download/website and only responds at times he wishes.

@noelte No hard feelings towards you, I wish you all the best with your business but I simply had to tell my experience. I think it is only fair for everybody to know

@KingZeeee:

I have no problem if someone reports his experiences with me here, even reports will mostly be made by unhappy guys, as a happy guys keep silence mostly.

The current issue Binbs has with me is not related to getting a new machine. It's about how the process went when he wanted to get a addition to his license.

That a license is bound to one machine is told before anybody buys anything.... as i see myself repeating all the time here. Everybody accepts the >>risk<< that when his machine breaks he will need to get a new license. And breaking here means mostly that the CPU dies. For me in more than 22 years no machine broke (speaking about all components). So, yes there might be some very unlucky guys outside whos CPU indeed breaks. But most times when someone say "my machine broke" it means "my harddisk died" (as Binbs) . If you harddisk dies, get a new and reinstall your system.

Binding a license to a machine is my COPY PROTECTION. And i won't give in about this even if i get banned on this site because of it.

And to be honest, guys who did buy a license knowing this and afterwards complain about that fact here, making a big wave, crying about what a scammer and cheater i am, make me rather angry. You don't like it, don't buy it.
And one more detail, nobody buys PokerPlaner, you rent it for one year to be used on the machine, you did the request on. So you have the right to use it, you don't own it.

-------------------------------------
(not adressed to you KingZeeee...)

Sorry didn't get a chance to reply since I've been in hospital for the last three days.

Noelte. What I'm trying to convince you of is to change your business practice that's all.

I'm trying to relay to you that if you copy the way other successful businesses conduct themselves, you will end up with many more happy customers than not. And I'm willing to bet you probably will make more money in the long run.

I'm not saying open yourself up to scams but never in my life have I heard so many negative things about a certain business.

I live in Chiang Mai, Thailand where there are many other pokerplayers as well and it surprises me that there so many complaints about your customer service.

Does this not worry you? Don't you want to provide a great experience for your customers?

Wouldn't you rather deal with happy customers than constantly having to hear people complaining about the way you conduct business?

I would guess that 90-95% of the people wanting to move licenses are NOT scamming you. If you keep conducting business the way you do you will end up losing more money than gaining the repeat customers from being flexible and helpful to your customers.

I'm telling you man, even if I had nothing Invested I would advise you to take the route of great customer service rather than not. It's just better for your business and you will make more money in the long run.

If you ever decide to re-evaluate my complaint, please ask around to see what kind of person I am. I play 400-1000NL for a living. Why would I waste hours on this problem for a mere 50€?

I'm not trying to get a fee license. I merely didn't understand the conditions of your service and ended up asking you to just add the license to my friends email because I was in a rush at the time, and then when I found out that it wasn't gonna work on the Machine I wanted, simply refused to accept having to double pay AGAIN.

That's my story. Take it or leave it. Either way I wish you good luck in the future and truly hope I at least gave you something to consider, that will not only improve your customers
Experience with you but also end up netting you more money in the long run.

P.S. Too lazy to proofread as I'm writing this on a phone.

PPS. Ask around about my reputation if you wish. If you're satisfied maybe we can resolve this and I can update the thread which means future customers can be more confident in dealing with you and I don't have to be annoyed that I spent 50€ (granted it was because of my own ignorance) and 3-4 hours of my time arguing about it.

Sorry. This is Binbs/Alex NOT Backblood.

Yes, Binbs and I are close friends. (Hence even using my account accidently). We are both poker players who live together. Binbs doesn't have a Skrill account so he uses mine to send payments to people he needs to and repays me later. This is why I sent you the payment via my email, and then believed I was clarifying my email to you. I didn't expect it to be bound from my previous machine because you were dealing withs Binbs (thats why its his chat log) and not mine.

Regarding the underlined and italic comment. Is it really that hard to change this?
This seems like a huge problem and it will only be recurring if its not changed. Not only do you bind your customers to that 1 machine, when irregualarities occur and you need to change things you can't. Its totally inflexible for the customer, and its making life more difficult for you. Extra problems get created and you have to waste time on bull**** like this (You think I want to waste my time dealing with something that doesn't really have something to do with me? I help out because its basically my friend losing out because there are stupid systems in place, and I want to change that)

This situation has occurred and Binbs is left with an unusable license for Dollaro since that license was linked to my account/computer.
This makes it totally useless for me since I don't play on Dollaro. Even if I did, I have reformatted my computer which makes the license you gave to Binbs for my computer even more useless.

The only way this benefits me is if I'm lieing about everything, and you think I'm out to get a free License for Binbs and add extra to my account and have Dollaro on there too. That would net a plus gain of 50€ for us.
Now you've created some sort of rapport with your customers where noone is trusting each other because situation like this will occur. I feel my friend basically gets ****ed over, I cant use the license on my account because I don't need or want it, and Binbs doesn't get his actual product he paid for, which was a license on his computer, and not my old one.

This can all be overcome by something tremendously simple (connecting to the internet), which every poker player will need to in order to use your product. Logically what they hell did you not put this in your product?

@Binbs + BackBlood: it was pretty obvious to me after your second post, who is who.

1 - the way i do copy protection i will not change (and don't want to discuss the reasons for it)

2 - because of 1) i need to tell about 1) very clearly, i think i do, but i'm open to suggestions to do it better

3 - i don't (even want to) judge anybody, but i also won't take all as good guys, as even the good guys in the past admitted (maybe by incident ) having used PokerPlaner for free when they discovered a way to. To good and bad apply the same rules.

4 - i believe i very openly communicate the critical parts of my >>business<< model. So 1) is not hidden somewhere on 1000 pages of text.

5 - i believe anybody can decide what he like to accept and what not. Eveything is told clearly, noone is tricked into anything.


===============================================
And someone even told me here that many of the customer might not even care about that little money they have to spend (told in more colorful words here b4). So how does "knowing" + "accepting" + "don't care for the money" lead to "complaining" and feeling "cheated/scammed"? I don't grasp that at all, i feel cheated if something is hidden from me so my decision i couldn't do based on all facts.

And if this current issue with you would be about your machine did break, i wouldn't even go in any discussion here. As about it all is pretty obvious and clear.

And it's here also not a slightest bit about reputation. If you are some unknown player or a saint, i will handle all the same. If i'm nice to someone, that is some subjective decision.
===============================================

I do understand what you like my business to be like, but it's my call how i do things without the need to explain my reasons. So, unless you see here something i do should make anybody more aware of, i like to wait for Bobo Fett's post. After this took place i will share one bit of additional thought. But before i want clearity who i meant to prevent similar events to appear again.

This is critically important here
Business isn't about being good or bad. Its about swapping consideration (in the legal sense). Binbs consideration in this exchange was money and yours was the product.

Binbs didnt get his product because I got it. The one I got was unuseable.
This is the end result which leaves him with nothing.

From the quote onwards to here are all facts that I'm hope you agree with. Please point out anything you don't?

How do you think people react when they purchased something and don't get what they expected?

What you did was blame the customer the customer (reference above)
German: "das ist zeimlich deutlich dein problem"
English: that's pretty much your problem

This escalates the problem by denying responsibility for the mistep and place it all on the customer. You then offer 50% discount which shows that you are partly responsible for the outcome. Do you agree?

If you agree with the above then this means Binbs needs to be compensated. Why?

A contract must both have consideration.
Since you received your consideration (money) and Binbs didn't receive it (product) you definitely need to fill your part.

Now you claim he did receive it by giving the license, but Binbs claims he didn't. Does an unuseable license constitute consideration?
In my eyes they don't and in many they don't either because this is not what he paid for. He believe he was getting a license that would be able to use on his computer, and looking at the log there shows to be no signs that the email would be bound to the license

Believing
"Need to know registered email to add to license"

Isn't the same as a license being bound to the email.
What this means is the email address that he gives shouldn't effect what happens to the license. Yet it does. You claim its his fault. I fail to see how it is.

i believe i have stated my point of view more than once here, you did same for your point of view.

Now i get even confused who is who at the end. Bottom line is, i did what i was told by the one i was talking to at skype. If on that you don't agree on, we are further apart than i thought.

And i spend more than enough time on it here now, explaining myself. Think there are no questions open. I now wait what Bobo Fett has to say about it. I'm sure you will understand and respect this. Thx.

I only made the one post on Backbloods account FYI.

Yes we can agree upon the fact that it was my ignorance and not understanding the terms of the license that caused this to happen.

I was just hoping for your understanding about this and also realisation that I didnt gain anything from the transaction as I needed the license on my machine and the fact that I was not trying to get a free license at all.

Im disappointed that I wasnt able to change your position about your policy, which I feel is the crux of most of the complaints that you get. Had I been able to do that your business would definitely gain from it and we would also be able to resolve our disagreement.

If the moderator comes out and takes my side of things, I will surely be glad about it but unfortunately I think you will lose more customers in the long run.

Let me suggest that you discuss this issue with someone you respect in business. Maybe they can shed light on this type of situation in a way that I wasnt able to.

Good luck.

Craig you should call the German version of better business bureau to see if this is even legal. I highly doubt it is after reading more on it. If so, you should really file a complaint against this guy. This is simply not how copyright is supposed to work.

It will if it is found to be illegal...

Ok.

That might be as it was. Think you reached now a point i can understand. And that was the situation i did offer a 50% discount, partly as it was no mistake on my part to be seen, but while still not wanting to make you pay full because of your mistake. Your friend saw it as a weakness, he is wrong about it.

And now, with what you think now, review your and your friends initial posts...


Anyway, as Bobo Fett seems rather busy and you came to a point of understanding i like to come to an end here. The one detail i did mentioned before is, that i did know that your friend did pay for you. Than you ask me to add it to same mail the payment was done, which was the one of your friend. Even if this could have been correct, at this point i could have asked again if this is indeed the correct mail.

So, even i did no mistake, i could have recognized that but didn't as of little time and multitasking.....

this all together and the fact that the storm did end and i don't feel forced to do it anymore, i will issue the dollaro license... I hope you read the dollaro grabber most likely doesn't work if you use a VPN to play (and you should test if it works befoere buying it). But i believe you don't use a VPN as this would violate the terms of Dollaro as far as i know.