I totally agree - HEM has taken the lead and now has sites suggesting it. PT3 probably is rapidly loosing this battle, and pEV is almost too late to the scene - no matter that it has sklansky and luck graphs that I'm sure Roy is going to add either planned or if/when there is any pressure to do some from competition.

I think the key to pEV having a chance at this point is that theoretically (assuming the claims are accurate) pEV will also track and analyze Omaha, which I think is such a huge selling point for the software and one that Phil needs to emphasize. Purchasing a single tracking program for all your poker needs vs a specialized product for texas hold'em only is huge IMO.

Is HM planning to add Omaha at some point? Kinda tough given the name of the program is 'holdem'....

HM already has an EV-graph - also, Omaha is a hold'em game, so the name won't be a hinderance for omaha support.

Well you get my point - a title like 'holdem manager' implies certain games, etc. Anyway, it certainly isn't a big deal in the long run if Roy were to incorporate other game support.

To the second point, I know that HM has an EV graph, but I thought that the original pokerEV had two other unique graphs or something (haven't used the program in a while). However, no matter this, the graph thing will be easily copied/incorporated I'd assume by HM/PT if there is the pressure to do so.

So again, unless there are just a slew of unique new features, or the interface is just worlds easier, or the HUD is just so much nicer/fancier than that of HEM, I think that the Omaha angle is what Phil has to play up, if he has any real chance at taking back market share. From what I've heard (and again I have only toyed with the free trials) HM has improved to the point that a lot of the potential edge that Phil claimed may be slipping away.

On the converse, I would expect that Roy would actively be working to add Omaha support, as this will completely blunt any charge from a program like pEV. If he does, things will be very interesting.

I think that the main reason this thread is active and people are clamoring for a beta release with daily posts (kinda ridiculous) even though HM is very good was the fact that Phil impressed so much with his original program in terms of unique features, programming, etc. There is so much hype that the new pEV will be another "wow" program.

In any event I think Phil realizes that he needs to release a beta but has been caught in his own decisions. If it's truly not ready for that then what can he do. He chose a certain strategy (build his own HUD, limit testing to a small group rather than a large beta release like the others with all of the criticisms and trials that resulted in).

I read in HM thread that it originally had Omaha support. Not sure about Hi/Lo. It seems like it would be pretty easy to add Omaha support to a hold'em program and Real Time had Omaha support so they can probably add it pretty easily when they catch up on other features.

Does the HM EV graph work for tourneys or just cash games?

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for tournaments.

HM doesn't have much support for tournaments at all yet - I don't play many of them so I haven't checked much but last I did, there weren't any graphs at all for tourneys yet.

HEM has likely sold 5-10K units by now, I'd be surprised if it was substantially more or less. The next gen tracker market will sell over 50K units by this time next year, and most of that will go to PT3. I'll PM you some numbers if you're interested.

It helps, but I think the big sales are going to be decided on holdem users since they're 90+% of the market. Ease of use, performance, new features, deeper analysis, an actual next-gen HUD and attention to detail are the main advantages pEV has. Assuming PokerEV releases in a week or two, I'm confident of eventually taking the lead as #2 tracker after PT3.
They're not going to lose their market lead. The core of PT3 is extremely well made (problems notwithstanding) and HM doesn't have the code to challenge them. What you're seeing now is the effect of HM's six month near monopoly on a working tracker/HUD. They've also had an actual monopoly on around 7 sites, unique core features, a market leader who had major bugs and didn't update for 3 months after commercial release, and another competitor who seems completely unreliable. The rumors are that PT3 have completely fixed their major bugs which you should see in the next week or so. PT3 will win back popularity as they begin adding new features rapidly. Once they surpass HM on some of HM's core advantages, all the marketing in the world won't make a difference, you can't do well with a product that's not as professional or feature rich as the market leader.

As mentioned earlier I've finished the testing and cleaning up and I'm working on the last piece of functionality, which is adding custom stats to the HUD. After this last miss I'm not giving a date until it goes to testers.

I can agree with everything you said except this. I purchased both HEM and PT3 and HEM is way better in every way. It has a nicer interface, faster searches, faster HUD, faster 'Auto-import' (it still loses the 'import folder' speed battle though)

I also like writing my own queries and searches and I know both systems' databases and I can't see how you can say that the PT3 system is better written.

I have a large (20m hands) database. When I got to about 10 million PT3 became slow enough to annoy me so I bought HEM. HEM is now doing twice as many hands and is still very nice and snappy to use.

Despite this fact, both HEM and PT3 are selling units, and conversely, picking up your potential customers. Its an interesting problem. From a strictly sales and revenue point of view, perhaps its better to just come out with a somewhat buggy product that people can use right now. Why do you think your strategy of waiting for a commercial quality product from out the gate is preferable?

I'm just curioius, but how do you know this? Have you actually discussed/seen the deeper workings of PT3 with Josh et al. or do you just trust them so much you're convinced of this?

The HEM database is very good. rvg did a great job on it. However, a database is only a small part of the work that has to go into a tracker, albeit the most important part if your competitor does a poor job. The rest of the code in HM is 6+ months behind what PT3 is capable of doing and I think some of it is downright unfixable. HM has frequently prioritized quickly hacked features over good design and testing, and while it worked for them when they had a monopoly, it's going to come back to bite them in the ass hard once PT3 gets their issues sorted.

PT3 hasn't put any of their flexibility to use yet because they've been struggling with HUD bugs, so it's really hard to see their advantage right now. Assuming the rumors are true and the problems with PT3 are fixed (I don't know), PT3 is going to be able to add features a lot faster and more professionally. Not to mention all kinds of unique capabilities that the HM core just can't handle.

Just one developer's opinion, but I think PokerAce Josh probably agrees

I don't have any inside knowledge, but having worked through many of the same problems that PT3 and HM have, it's very obvious who's got the most flexible framework and careful design (ignoring the database).

Fair enough - and I hope you're right.

From the outside though, it's so far looked like PT3 was thrown together too quickly after being caught a bit off guard by the surprise announcement and release of HM, which hasn't made me too optimistic about the core either.

I would much prefer that they'd taken your approach and taken their time, but I also realise they probably had other issues such as promotion deals with various other parties as well as a desire to get out a product before HM became too well known.

Time will tell though - as much as I love HM, I'm hoping both PT3 and PEV turns out great as I want more toys

It's starting to sound like Phil and Josh are in bed together. Are you two going to work together and try to take HM down? Maybe split the profits down the middle?

Absolutely. I didn't buy anything Josh has said about PT3's development and I don't think anyone else did either.

HM's a huge step up from PT2/PA, and it's the only next gen tracker that actually works right now. But it hasn't really pushed the envelope that far for a next gen tracker either, so there's room for more toys.

The worst thing you can do from a PR perspective is criticize the competition, it gets people off side and recommending the very product that you criticize. Much better to come off as a nice guy. Besides, what I say will make no difference to 99% of people buying trackers.

Well, you haven't always been so nice to Roy and HM. That's actually why I was surprised you were so positive talking about PT3. Especially after Josh admitted to copying the way you do filters after seeing an early beta.

I'm happy with HM, but I'll most likely buy pEV the first week it comes out.

I'll buy them all, because I just want you all to get along

I must be honest. I got tired of waiting for PT3 to add event the features that PT2 had. So I bought HEM. My only major problem was importing the initial hands from a folder took all night for only about 140k hands. This seems to be a bug that they are working to fix.
Once I got started, the program runs fast, the HUD is decent and updates well and I really like the ev and all in stats. Support has been excellent.
Maybe PT3 will be better and PEV better still, but will they be before 2009. I still own PT3 so I'll find out, I guess. If PEV comes out and is way better than HEM, I would purchase it.

Ive heard the "PT3 will catch up to HM" argument for a while but from my perspective the gap only seems to be widening. Roy & co. seem to be MUCH better at fixing bugs, adding features and updates in general. PT3 just seems to be languishing. Yeah one day in the future PT3 may be great. Wake me when that day comes because right now it just seems like PT3 is getting its ass handed to it by HM.

HM as only working 3rd gen tracker
even is PT3 or PEV2 take the lead next year.
i would still say, purchase HM now, is still money well spent.
it does have some annoying bugs, but work well.
I can't wait to see PEV2, phil
i so wish i have dip in on that bet
so did you pay that guy $5.99? lol

PT3 haven't updated in months because they screwed up the HUD and put their business on hold to fix it - and no other reason. *Assuming* they've fixed it now, as I've heard, I think you'll be surprised at how much faster than HM updates and new features can be rolled out.

Time will tell I guess. They've yet to deliver.

I PMed him asking for payment details. Schwallie missed out on 2K since he didn't take the bet.

I would've taken it, but I pretty much guessed you would rush-release even a not-so-done model and skip some of the last minute changes or upgrades to push it out so I didn't take it.

It was definitely a bet if not for that, you are a habitual deadline misser.

Fast payment! A+++++++ Excellent 2+2er****************

Phil... You may want to try and bulldoze thru the early crap in this thread... and get to where they start discussing pEV.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...60#post5384260