04-12-2008 , 07:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian
What the number in the red circle tells us is our EV given that we decided to openraise, since folding is not treated as a loss:

0.38 * 0.807 * 1.5 + 0.38 * 0.193 * -2.5 + 0.62 * 0?? = 0.27664 = 0.28

In reality in a HU game, folding the sb comes at a price, we lose half a big blind. This is what I would like to see, as the current calculation doesn't have (as) much practical use for HU poker.

0.38 * 0.807 * 1 + 0.38 * 0.193 * -3 + 0.62 * -0.5 = -0.22336 = -0.22

This is the number I would like to see in the red circle, or at least somewhere. This number tells us what our average final stack will be (77.7 big blinds) if we play this game 100 times. It won't be 127.7, which is what the current number would seem to imply.

Edit:
62 times, our stack will decrease by 0.5 (-\$31)
30.67 times, our stack will increase by 1 (\$30.67)
7.33 times, our stack will decrease by 3 (-\$22)
End result -\$22.33
Hi Fabian,

The white decision buttons represent your decision at the exact time in the hand where it's made.

That is after posting the small blind. At this point in time you know your hand (which was not the case before posting) and the sb is no longer yours but belongs to the pot.

As MattS suggests, if you want to know your EV before posting then all you need to do is deduct the sb=\$0,50 from the given EV.

Cheers,

Scylla

Edit: My intent in underlining the times is to convey that the EV of all decisions is measured at the exact time in the hand that they are made.
The time at which EV's are measured is crucial.

Last edited by scylla; 04-12-2008 at 08:05 PM.
04-12-2008 , 08:57 PM
Well that solution certainly was simple

Would you consider adding the option of displaying the EV in the way I suggested somewhere, though? The EV before the cards are dealt and blinds are posted. It's a much more relevant number for mini-games like the one I was modeling, and it would be helpful not having to subtract 0.5 manually if I were to do this 500 billion times, which I'm sure I will. I think your program is very awesome.
04-13-2008 , 06:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian
Well that solution certainly was simple

Would you consider adding the option of displaying the EV in the way I suggested somewhere, though? The EV before the cards are dealt and blinds are posted. It's a much more relevant number for mini-games like the one I was modeling, and it would be helpful not having to subtract 0.5 manually if I were to do this 500 billion times, which I'm sure I will. I think your program is very awesome.
I can see how it would make the analysis a bit easier but the downside is that the program would need another option in one of the menus.

I get many suggestions that, although considered on their own merrits, have solid reasoning, but if I were to implement all of them the program very soon would turn into a bonanza of buttons.

For that reason I am invariable very hesitant to add extra options unless there is really no alternative. For the option you're suggesting it suffices to realize that the 0 EV point is if the displayed EV is equal to the sb.

I'm afraid I can not add this option, although the correct EV for a minigame would indeed require the sb being deducted.

I'm very sorry, but you'll have to do some math yourself
04-13-2008 , 09:59 PM
Perhaps you could create an Options window (Ctrl + F5) with all these crazy/obscure buttons most people won't be interested in. Or even call it Advanced Options so people realize they should stay away I can't really see one extra window like that confusing people even more than they already are when trying to learn to work the program. Just a thought.

I do realize it's not high on your priority list though and that's cool. I hope you will keep it in mind for future versions though.
04-15-2008 , 06:16 PM
You can get the new version of the program here:

http://mediaserver2.stoxpoker.com:80.../stoxev109.msi

The most significant improvement is that large trees now no longer crash.
It wasn't exactly a walk in the park to figure out what went wrong, but after many days and hours fiddling with it I found the cause.
Not easy ...

As for the instruction video, I finished it last week and it should be available by thursday.
I hope.
04-17-2008 , 12:58 PM
could you possibly build some way of pasting/importing a hand history to stoxev so you wouldn't have to manually insert everything? i think this would be very handy for session reviews
04-17-2008 , 02:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lateksi
could you possibly build some way of pasting/importing a hand history to stoxev so you wouldn't have to manually insert everything? i think this would be very handy for session reviews
Actually I was indeed planning to have a look at that now.
I'm already having a bit of a look at some hand histories.
I HOPE this will not be a huge amount of work.
From what I can tell so far, this may go smoothly.

I'm considering starting out with
Full tilt
Pokerstars
iPoker

Did I miss any big sites?
04-17-2008 , 03:16 PM
Party
04-18-2008 , 07:56 AM
Hi Scylla,

really nice software, I just wish I was actually smart enough to use it. I spent some time trying to model the following situation:

I'm UTG+1, AQ of hearts, raise it up to 5x, villain on btn calls. his range is 22-JJ,AKs-A4s, AKo-AQo, KQo.

flop is T32 all hearts, giving me the nut flush. I bet 10, villain min-r to 20 and now I need a decision tree. - I give villain a set here 100% of the time so I adjust the ranges accordingly. I have the following question in this situation.

What is the best move ev-wise between

a) flat calling his min-r and chk/fold when the board pairs and push on any non-pairing board
b) just shove on the flop? I'm assuming that villain never folds a set.
c) 3b flop to 55 and push any turn that doesn't pair the board.

At the moment I have modelled these 3 decicions but to see the differences, I'm editing the hands to give them 100% and the rest 0%... there is probably a better way to do this.

Another scenario on the flop: if villain calls my flop bet, I put him on a 1card fd and I want to model that he pays me off with all hands that include the Q of hears and K of hearts and fold everything else.

the problem I had when modelling this is to pick the hands that he pays me off with when he makes his 1card flush and exclude them from the fold action... quite time-consuming..

hope I make sense at all.

Last edited by luckyfool; 04-18-2008 at 07:57 AM. Reason: typo
04-18-2008 , 09:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by luckyfool
Hi Scylla,

really nice software, I just wish I was actually smart enough to use it. I spent some time trying to model the following situation:

I'm UTG+1, AQ of hearts, raise it up to 5x, villain on btn calls. his range is 22-JJ,AKs-A4s, AKo-AQo, KQo.

flop is T32 all hearts, giving me the nut flush. I bet 10, villain min-r to 20 and now I need a decision tree. - I give villain a set here 100% of the time so I adjust the ranges accordingly. I have the following question in this situation.

What is the best move ev-wise between

a) flat calling his min-r and chk/fold when the board pairs and push on any non-pairing board
b) just shove on the flop? I'm assuming that villain never folds a set.
c) 3b flop to 55 and push any turn that doesn't pair the board.
Hi Luckyfool,

I'm asuming that if you just call, the turn is a heart and you push, villain will fold getting 1.69:1.
If you checkraised the flop and push a heart turn villain will call getting 4.04:1.

To include all 3 lines in the tree I've added them all to the decision and attached a weight to the first and second one.
In this way all lines get about a third of all runs.
Currently the bet-call line is the superior one.
After that the floppush.
Slightly behind that is the flop reraise.

You can get the EVs for each action by hovering over it. A popup will display the action's EV.

Mail me at stoxpoker_ev@hotmail.com and I'll mail you the savefile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luckyfool
Another scenario on the flop: if villain calls my flop bet, I put him on a 1card fd and I want to model that he pays me off with all hands that include the Q of hears and K of hearts and fold everything else.

the problem I had when modelling this is to pick the hands that he pays me off with when he makes his 1card flush and exclude them from the fold action... quite time-consuming..
I think the option you're looking for is under the "holecards" tab of the postflop menu.
Click the "Range" button and enter Kh,Qh.
04-18-2008 , 06:50 PM
The idea of adding Hand Histories to this already excellent program really gets me excited. I hope that this will come to be. Can that be confirmed?

-GB
04-18-2008 , 07:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GameBreaker
The idea of adding Hand Histories to this already excellent program really gets me excited. I hope that this will come to be. Can that be confirmed?

-GB
I will certainly give it my best shot.
I'm starting monday.
I want to start out with the following sites:

Full tilt
Pokerstars
iPoker
Party

However, to properly read the hand histories from these sites I'll need some sample hand histories for the following situations:

1) NL cash game
2) Limit cash game
3) Sit and go hand
4) Tournament hand
5) A hand with antes
6) A hand with a player sitting out
7) A hand with a player disconnecting and being all in
8) A hand with a player disconnecting and folding

If anyone reading this has some of such hands in their database, that would be great! Please mail them to stoxpoker_ev@hotmail.com.
I won't need a huge amount of hands, just enough to know what the conventions are.

Thanks,

Scylla

Last edited by scylla; 04-18-2008 at 08:01 PM.
04-19-2008 , 04:56 AM
i hate to show my slowness but i have no idea how to use this. I read the manual and was able to go through the QQ example but how do i start a fresh tree? Example lets say i'm playing 2nl and utg folds utg+1 raises to 10 cents and 3 players limp to me in the co. I have j/9 suited. I know utg+1 only raises the top 12 percent of his hands from that position. How do i use this program to figure my equity?
04-19-2008 , 06:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grumpy64
i hate to show my slowness but i have no idea how to use this. I read the manual and was able to go through the QQ example but how do i start a fresh tree? Example lets say i'm playing 2nl and utg folds utg+1 raises to 10 cents and 3 players limp to me in the co. I have j/9 suited. I know utg+1 only raises the top 12 percent of his hands from that position. How do i use this program to figure my equity?
The stoxpoker admin has asured me that the video manual will be in the public video section of www.stoxpoker.com this weekend.
My advice is to wait for that.
04-19-2008 , 06:15 AM
emailed you some full tilt nlhe cash hands with disconnections and sitouts
04-19-2008 , 07:32 AM
How about instead or in addition to making you own hh parser, connect to PT3/HEM database and choose hands from there?
04-19-2008 , 08:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gball
How about instead or in addition to making you own hh parser, connect to PT3/HEM database and choose hands from there?
sorry but i don't know how to do that either.
04-19-2008 , 01:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lateksi
emailed you some full tilt nlhe cash hands with disconnections and sitouts
Excellent!

Thanks a lot!
04-19-2008 , 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gball
How about instead or in addition to making you own hh parser, connect to PT3/HEM database and choose hands from there?
That would be an alternative, however I think it's going to be hard to find back to correct hand.
Copy pasting a hand history (I think) will be easier.
04-21-2008 , 12:29 AM
Got a question on some of the calculations:

When I simulate a simple preflop decision, I get the following tree and resulting EV:

Now, when I add the "fold" branch of the tree, the equity and EV both change:

The EV of a fold should be zero here, right? Why is it changing when I add the fold branch?
04-21-2008 , 06:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokercurious
Got a question on some of the calculations:

When I simulate a simple preflop decision, I get the following tree and resulting EV:

Now, when I add the "fold" branch of the tree, the equity and EV both change:

The EV of a fold should be zero here, right? Why is it changing when I add the fold branch?
A player's range is decided in his first decision.

In the first pic the BB's range will be the top 17.5% of hands. He will get those hands 100% of the time.

In the second pic the BB's range is all hands. He will play 17.5% of them and fold the rest.

In the second pic the EV of the top 17.5% of hands is about \$164, the EV of folding is 0. The total EV will be \$164*0.175+\$0*0.825=\$29.
04-21-2008 , 11:21 AM
Hi guys,

Well, apparantly posting a video on stoxpoker is a bigger deal than I thought. It seems that a lot of planning is involved to coordinate all the posts.

I think it's going to take a bit too long though, so for now I've decided to borrow a website to post the files there:

Go here

I haven't bothered prettying it up since it's just a temporary solution.

Klik the two files. Although no download window is shown, the download is being performed. Downloading one file takes about a minute. The files are zipped, so you'll need to unzip them.

The manual takes about 1 hour.
04-21-2008 , 11:47 AM

Sorry to be a troll, but,...

Why not just host them on a file hosting site? Or Host the RAR files on the StoxPoker servers?

If I leave the page you posted the files, the download will cancel, and I have to start over? No file size description? or download status window? I have no idea how much data I am downloading, or how long it will take. I have a fast connection, and expect your estimate of "about an hour" isn't accurate for me, but have no way of knowing.

I will wait for you to post a properly hosted download. Kind of disappointing, as I would really like to learn how to use this program.
04-21-2008 , 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fozzy71

Sorry to be a troll, but,...

Why not just host them on a file hosting site? Or Host the RAR files on the StoxPoker servers?

If I leave the page you posted the files, the download will cancel, and I have to start over? No file size description? or download status window? I have no idea how much data I am downloading, or how long it will take. I have a fast connection, and expect your estimate of "about an hour" isn't accurate for me, but have no way of knowing.

I will wait for you to post a properly hosted download. Kind of disappointing, as I would really like to learn how to use this program.
The download takes less than a minute on my computer.

Just trying to give acces to the files and I remembered I had acces to a website that I could post it on.
Didn't bother to do too much with it, since it's just temporary.
04-21-2008 , 12:36 PM
Thats great - but I will still wait until there is a proper download link.

m