GTO GTO+/CardRunnersEV? - Page 239 - Poker Software -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

Well done Scylla, like the new GTO solver. I like the visual aspects of it and can see this being a very intuitive tool. The colour representation bar under the card matrix which is coloured blue for raise etc is a great way to visually oversee your range and how you play it versus the equity those particular hands have.

I've only tested it briefly against PIO and the results are very similar although GTO seems much much quicker and less of a resource hogger.

Would like to see a quicker way of setting up ranges for each position similar to PIO so you dont have to keep typing them in - eg SB 3B range versus CO open.

Quote

08-01-2017 , 06:44 AM

#5952

Kalupso

journeyman

Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 337

The ability to store ranges in GTO+ should also be high priority IMO and the way it's now I'd have to copy paste from another software. Being able to select random turn and river cards is also a nice feature that I use to quiz myself on turn and river spots. I understand there are trade-offs here in terms of making software more cluttered.

It would be great to get the ability to run many flops with a script in cardrunnersEV as well because it's a an essential feature for effective study, and there are a lot of advanced features in crEV that makes it better for certain things than all other alternatives including GTO+ for now.

Last edited by Kalupso; 08-01-2017 at 07:03 AM.

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08-01-2017 , 07:18 AM

#5953

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,444

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoSurprises

The preflop range editor was the first window that was designed and, at the time, we felt that development would take about 3 months. As is typical in software design, it ended up taking twice as long. Anyhow, particularly the preflop editor is missing some features at this point (a "Clear" button would be nice) because we wanted to speed up development a bit by not bothering too much with details. That being said, we will actually probably use this opportunity to create a new predef approach, however, this will take some time.

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08-01-2017 , 07:23 AM

#5954

4-Star General

adept

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,012

Hi Scylla, I will be not at home for at least 1 week so I cannot check how GTO+ look like. I Also noticed the youtube channel is empty, so can you plz post some screenshots?

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08-01-2017 , 07:25 AM

#5955

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,444

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalupso

The ability to store ranges in GTO+ should also be high priority IMO and the way it's now I'd have to copy paste from another software.

Sorry about that. It will be added, and probably in a more elaborate way than we offer now, however, we wanted to speed up development a bit by leaving out this feature for the moment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalupso

Being able to select random turn and river cards is also a nice feature that I use to quiz myself on turn and river spots. I understand there are trade-offs here in terms of making software more cluttered.

We do have plans for this, but development will still take some time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalupso

It would be great to get the ability to run many flops with a script in cardrunnersEV as well because it's a an essential feature for effective study, and there are a lot of advanced features in crEV that makes it better for certain things than all other alternatives including GTO+ for now.

For the moment development is focussed on GTO+, given that in GTO+ you can run a large number of flops and store the results in a very tiny database. This is just v100 of GTO+ though, and quite a few functions are yet to be added.

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08-01-2017 , 07:26 AM

#5956

NoSurprises

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,869

One thing I noticed is this.

You are SB and you 3b A4hh. Flop is Jh3h9d. GTO tells me to bet A4hh 100%. If I choose to check call instead, the A4hh disappears from future streets in the decision tree. It's basically saying look, I told you to bet it 100%, you didnt, therefore I dont exist in the game tree anymore.

When reviewing hands postgame I nearly always make mistakes - the problem is, if I should have done something 100% on the flop and I didnt, I dont get to find out what I should actually have done "as played" on later streets - hope I'm making sense.

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08-01-2017 , 07:26 AM

#5957

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,444

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4-Star General

Hi Scylla, I will be not at home for at least 1 week so I cannot check how GTO+ look like. I Also noticed the youtube channel is empty, so can you plz post some screenshots?

No, it's not empty.
Please check again.
The video is linked to on the webpage: http://www.cardrunnersev.com/gtoplus.html

Quote

08-01-2017 , 07:28 AM

#5958

4-Star General

adept

Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,012

Quote:

Originally Posted by scylla

No, it's not empty.
Please check again.
The video is linked to on the webpage: http://www.cardrunnersev.com/gtoplus.html

lol sorry, I checked a few hours ago and I didn't see anything...
Seems visually astonishing, gratz for that.

I also have another question about the preflop solver, you mentioned you we should not expect a preflop solver due to the hardware limitations. Although I understand completely your reasons, PIO and other competitors are run on a server and GTO+ ideally can do the same. So can I ask you why you won't develop a preflop solver and let user decide whether to use it or not?

Last edited by 4-Star General; 08-01-2017 at 07:42 AM.

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08-01-2017 , 07:50 AM

#5959

voy@ger

centurion

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 140

Scylla, what I am doing now it is solving flop in CREV and copy/paste solution in free PIO version where I can find out which hands is the best in GTO terms to overbet/underbet turn/river and how these hands should be grouped etc. Are you going to add multiple bet sizing option in the future realizes?

Last edited by voy@ger; 08-01-2017 at 07:59 AM.

Quote

08-01-2017 , 08:05 AM

#5960

Kalupso

journeyman

Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 337

Quote:

Originally Posted by scylla

This is just v100 of GTO+ though, and quite a few functions are yet to be added.

I completely understand and I think the design philosophy is great. I really like the greater focus on how the ranges overall are composed, the easy of changing/locking a strategy, and quicly re-solving turn/river with locks or to higher accuracy.

One more small thing that makes a big difference is the ability to remove donk bets, and with donk bets removed I cut the solving time in half for solving to around 0.7%.

Quote

08-01-2017 , 08:08 AM

#5961

cariocavip

newbie

Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 17

Just tested GTO+, the download, registration with the registry.dat from CREV worked nice, the software is running really smooth and the experience was intuitive.

This seens kinda awkward though:

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoSurprises

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08-01-2017 , 08:17 AM

#5962

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,444

Quote:

Originally Posted by cariocavip

Just tested GTO+, the download, registration with the registry.dat from CREV worked nice, the software is running really smooth and the experience was intuitive.

This seens kinda awkward though:

I assume you mean that the hand disappears from the "Bet" line? That is to be expected. If it's not present in the "Bet" line, it will not be shown. It should be present in the "Check" line though. So it that's not the case, then please send a savefile to support.

Last edited by scylla; 08-01-2017 at 08:45 AM.

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08-01-2017 , 08:20 AM

#5963

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,444

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalupso

This is just a first beta in order to catch bugs in an early stage. More elaborate tree building features will be added throughout the coming months, as part of a larger subset of functions. For more on this, please see the website.

Last edited by scylla; 08-01-2017 at 08:28 AM.

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08-01-2017 , 08:27 AM

#5964

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,444

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4-Star General

We are completely capable of building a preflop solver, however, we would like to focus on developing our own functionality. A preflop solver requires a massively expensive machine (or, indeed, running on a server), but more importantly is only relevant for heads-up play. It does not work for 3-handed, 5-handed, 6-handed, etc. Moreso, it's fun and all to know how you theoretically should play, however, from a practical point of view it seems to me that just looking at your own historic performance should provide you with quite a lot deeper insight into what works for you.

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08-01-2017 , 08:44 AM

#5965

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,444

Quote:

Originally Posted by voy@ger

The first order of business will be turn/river reports and our variant of scripting. Tree navigation/building will come after that, and we'll make decisions at that time as to exactly which features are added (checking when OOP will be added though; that much I can tell you). I'm not saying that we will or we won't; we simply haven't made any decisions here yet.

Quote

08-01-2017 , 08:48 AM

#5966

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,444

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoSurprises

Oh, sorry, I missed this post. It appears it was made while I was typing a response to a different message, causing me to overlook it. The interface does indeed not show hands that are not present in the range, however, functionality for tracking individual hands will be added in later versions. We have in fact gone through quite a bit of trouble to ensure that this functionality is already present in the engine so that it can be added relatively easily later on.

Quote

08-01-2017 , 09:21 AM

#5967

Siesta

newbie

Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 29

Hi Scylla,

Looking great so far! One thing I noticed straight away though is that it is harder to see what is going on in the matrix with the black background compared to the white one in CREV. This is especially true with low weighted hands.

Very excited about some of the planned features, specifically turn reports and flop databases. Both sound amazing!

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08-01-2017 , 09:27 AM

#5968

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,444

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siesta

Some tweaks may still be applied, however, the toggle on top of the matrix, when set to "Relative weights" should make basically all hands easy to see (at least, it works for me).

Quote

08-01-2017 , 09:36 AM

#5969

SoyLate

newbie

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 27

will you include a Max Exploit function like CREV did?

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08-01-2017 , 09:49 AM

#5970

YoungKhalifa

journeyman

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 310

gto+ looks nice but it doesnt work with multiple betsizes so far or am i missing something ?

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08-01-2017 , 10:04 AM

#5971

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,444

Quote:

Originally Posted by YoungKhalifa

gto+ looks nice but it doesnt work with multiple betsizes so far or am i missing something ?

GTO+ is in beta.
Please read the description on the website.

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08-01-2017 , 10:06 AM

#5972

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,444

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoyLate

will you include a Max Exploit function like CREV did?

This is the only functionality that we will not be able to transfer, given that it requires storing the entire tree in memory, as opposed to only storing part of the tree as we are doing now. It would make the software much more resource intensive. We have decided to leave that particular feature out, given that it was mostly just added as a check to see if the Nash distance was indeed within dEV.

Quote

08-01-2017 , 10:09 AM

#5973

NoSurprises

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,869

This is an example of a combination going missing when I took an alternative line in game.

I defend A6dd BB v BTN. I XC the flop then XR the turn - GTO advises check calling the turn with A6dd 100%.

https://ibb.co/jZpMek

When villain calls my raise it is me to act first on the river and you can see A6 has now been removed from the card matrix :

https://ibb.co/f3DEzk

- the only combos remaining are the combos that GTO advised should be raised on the turn.

So I can see as a training tool that this is saying that I should not have raised the turn, it doesnt help me decide what I should do on the river when I do raise the turn.

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08-01-2017 , 10:13 AM

#5974

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,444

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoSurprises

Yes, the interface does indeed not show hands that are not present in the range, however, functionality for tracking individual hands will be added in later versions. We have in fact gone through quite a bit of trouble to ensure that this functionality is already present in the engine so that it can be added relatively easily later on.