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GTO+/CardRunnersEV? GTO+/CardRunnersEV?

03-23-2008 , 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neku GTO+/CardRunnersEV?
Something strange here: EV calculation won't run because of this error (I'm trying to run it from the flop onwards).

The program is told to check for the UTG+1 but not with what hands.
You'll have the same problem with the button.
The program is told to call with >=mp or oesd but not what to do in other situations.
A tree should look something like this:


For EV calculations all possibilities should be accounted for.
If you just want percentages then this is not necessary, the program will stop whenever it can't go on at some point in the tree.
03-23-2008 , 02:50 PM
my bad, thanks for the explain
03-23-2008 , 05:33 PM
is there gonna be a stox video on how to use this?
much like stox video on pokertracker.
03-23-2008 , 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by allyasia GTO+/CardRunnersEV?
is there gonna be a stox video on how to use this?
much like stox video on pokertracker.
There already is one, that is on YouTube. I forget where the link was posted, but I doubt it would be hard to find. I think the OP said the would be making a new one soon, as well.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6fYixwfjpo
03-23-2008 , 05:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fozzy71 GTO+/CardRunnersEV?
There already is one, that is on YouTube. I forget where the link was posted, but I doubt it would be hard to find. I think the OP said the would be making a new one soon, as well.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6fYixwfjpo
Yes, I was planning on starting work on that video today, but my plans changed. I'll start tomorrow and hope to have it up in a week.

The video you're linking to is actually for the stoxpoker combo program, which is something different altogether.
A short video for thís program dóes exists at this point. It's a short demo by Bryce Paradis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln9lJVeDwbg
03-23-2008 , 06:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scylla GTO+/CardRunnersEV?
Yes, I was planning on starting work on that video today, but my plans changed. I'll start tomorrow and hope to have it up in a week.

The video you're linking to is actually for the stoxpoker combo program, which is something different altogether.
A short video for thís program dóes exists at this point. It's a short demo by Bryce Paradis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln9lJVeDwbg
LOL - It's all Greek to me, afaik.
03-23-2008 , 06:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fozzy71 GTO+/CardRunnersEV?
LOL - It's all Greek to me, afaik.
Well, it's clearly confusing since stoxpoker is suddenly coming out with two pieces of software.
I can imagine it's hard to tell the difference.

The stoxpoker EV calculator is a piece of software that basically does all the EV math work for you in analysing complex hands.
All you need to do is tell it what you would do in a certain situation and what you think your opponent is likely to do.
It will then do all the complex mathwork for you to figure out your EV at all decisionpoints that would otherwise:
-take hours of work
-with a good chance you've made a mistake in one of the tens of dozens (or even hundreds) of calculations
-may well turn out to be impossible

The Stoxpoker EV calculator does a lot of other analysis work too. You can basically research just about anything with it.


The Stoxpoker Combo program is made by another programmer. I don't think it's my place to elaborate on what it does exactly since it's not my work. I'd be very willing to, but I just don't think it's my place.
03-23-2008 , 06:38 PM
Oh, thx - that cleared up absolutely nothing.
03-23-2008 , 06:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fozzy71 GTO+/CardRunnersEV?
Oh, thx - that cleared up absolutely nothing.
Ok, simpler version: It's a tool that helps you figure out your best line.

It requires you to tell it what you think villain would do in a certain situation and calculates for you how profitable a certain strategy against villain would be.
03-23-2008 , 06:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scylla GTO+/CardRunnersEV?
Ok, simpler version: It's a tool that helps you figure out your best line.

It requires you to tell it what you think villain would do in a certain situation and calculates for you how profitable a certain strategy against villain would be.
LOL - Nvmd. I was hoping you could explain the differences between the 2 Stox programs, or at least link me to something that explains the other one, so I can figure it out for myself, but apparently not.
03-23-2008 , 06:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fozzy71 GTO+/CardRunnersEV?
LOL - Nvmd. I was hoping you could explain the differences between the 2 Stox programs, or at least link me to something that explains the other one, so I can figure it out for myself, but apparently not.
Oh ok, I misunderstood then.
The youtube video that you linked to in post 29 does a pretty good job of explaining Stoxpoker Combo.

Last edited by scylla; 03-23-2008 at 07:05 PM.
03-23-2008 , 07:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scylla GTO+/CardRunnersEV?
Oh ok, I misunderstood then.
The youtube video that you linked to in post 29 does a pretty good job of explaining Stoxpoker Combo.
The only thread that I know about concerning Stoxpoker Combo, which includes a vague reference to Pokerazor, is:

The Upcomming "Stoxpoker Combo"

Thanks for the video link Fozzy.

Edit: Found this post: Stoxpoker Combo 1.0 Closed Beta

gTg

Last edited by GaryTheGoat; 03-23-2008 at 07:14 PM. Reason: Link post (not a thread)
03-23-2008 , 07:23 PM
I have the 1.0.6 crashing sometimes when I copy/paste actions many times in a row.

Fantastic software by the way, I think it is the #1 software of this forum.
03-23-2008 , 07:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainwan GTO+/CardRunnersEV?
I have the 1.0.6 crashing sometimes when I copy/paste actions many times in a row.

Fantastic software by the way, I think it is the #1 software of this forum.
Thanks for that piece of feedback.
A crash is of course a very unwanted occurrence and I'm very eager to find out what goes wrong.
Could you mail me the savefile to stoxpoker_ev@hotmail.com and give a brief recap of what you were doing?
I would really appreciate that.

Thanks in advance,

Scylla
03-24-2008 , 05:30 PM
scylla,

Great software!

I was working through the situation which you posted hereinabove:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...05#post3215705


I had previously "solved" the problem via beta5 in agreement with the hereinabove post. However, when I ran the same problem through beta6, I was presented with differing results from flop forward of BB. I even ran my b5 savefile through b6 and the results varied.

Which results are correct? Can the ev calculations could be exported to text file function like Lateski suggested here?


gTg
03-24-2008 , 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryTheGoat GTO+/CardRunnersEV?
scylla,

Great software!

I was working through the situation which you posted hereinabove:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...05#post3215705


I had previously "solved" the problem via beta5 in agreement with the hereinabove post. However, when I ran the same problem through beta6, I was presented with differing results from flop forward of BB. I even ran my b5 savefile through b6 and the results varied.

Which results are correct? Can the ev calculations could be exported to text file function like Lateski suggested here?


gTg
Hi Gary,

1.0.6 is correct.
1.0.5 had a horrendous bug in it that made >=tp accept ANY pocket pair.
Not only have I removed this bug, I have gone over this entire part of the code with a fine comb, removed a couple of other tiny bugs and am now confident that there are no more.
I have checked this by looking if for instance >=mp was always ahead of pp>3rd , and every other possible scenario. It was not a fun day

One of the other bugs was that a 2 pair hand like QJ on a 22QJA board was accepted as >=tp, which of course is not the case. Another small bug was that AA on a 22QJ board was considered worse than 2 pair. There were some others, but you get the picture.

Incidentally, these bugs were in the condition-check functions and NOT in the hand valuation functions that work out equity and best hand and such. The latter are 100% certain bugfree and match all documented statistics that I have been able to get my hands on.

Anyhow, it's irrelevant now. I don't see how the condition-checks could contain any more bugs, it borders on the impossible.


As for the file output, I'm more than willing to implement that, I just don't have a good idea what such output would look like. Could you give me an example of what it would look like for the examplefile in question?

Last edited by scylla; 03-24-2008 at 06:09 PM.
03-25-2008 , 04:42 AM
scylla:
Quote:
"...As for the file output, I'm more than willing to implement that, I just don't have a good idea what such output would look like. Could you give me an example of what it would look like for the examplefile in question?"
I probably couldn't give you a good example of what it would look like. I would defer to my more learned associates at 2p2 to provide that guidance. It has been about 35 years since I've had a math course. lol



Lateksi:
Quote:
"Also, some kind of export to text file function that turns the calculations into an easily readable text format would be handy so people could post their mad EV calcz on 2+2 when discussing hands etc."
I was looking forward to lurking and learning from these types of discussions.

I have done some ev equations work per the M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread and "guessing" at the ev of a given situation in TTH (many long years ago).


It just seems that StoxEV calculates ev for each decision and could "dump" the ev calculation formula for same to a text file. But I'm often confused. TTH and others have stated that they "didn't want to bore us with the ev details".

Please be advised that I am in no way casting aspersions on your math expertise. I implicitly trust that you have provided accurate numbers. It's just that I have always enjoyed struggling through the details in detail at least once for a deeper understanding. The devil is in the details and the joy is in the journey.

Thanks for the great software,


gTg
03-25-2008 , 09:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scylla GTO+/CardRunnersEV?
As for the file output, I'm more than willing to implement that, I just don't have a good idea what such output would look like. Could you give me an example of what it would look like for the examplefile in question?
I was thinking something like this, here's an example from QQproblem.stx:

Active players: UTG ($1000), UTG+3 ($1000), Button ($1000)

UTG raises to $35 (AA-66, AKs-AQs, AKo) Eq: 0% Ev: 82.01
UTG+3 raises to $120 (AA-66, AKs-AQs, AKo) Eq: 0% Ev: 2.22
Button raises to $1000 (QQ) Eq: 43.5% Ev: -70.01
UTG calls 21.9% (AA-KK, AKs), folds 78.1% (QQ-66, AQs, AKo) Eq: 28.3% Ev: 117.01
etc etc

Or something like that. Something that adds a little bit of BBcode to make the hand a bit more readable, like with forum HH converters. And a similar raw text output for our own records. People are copy/pasting their PokerStove calculations in hand posts and I think this could be way more valuable
03-25-2008 , 10:07 AM
I see what you mean.
The original intent of the program where it comes to forums is that people could
a) post screenshots, which is not that hard. I use photobucket.
b) share their savefiles and even work with/edit other peoples savefiles. The savefiles are intentionally small and even something like 1 kb in zipped form. The stoxpoker forums allow you to attach a file to your post, I'm not sure if that is possible at this point at 2p2. But there has to be some way around that. And if the demand is there the 2p2 admins might be willing to add that feature.

Edit: The files with ranges and custom conditions in them can also be shared.

The above two options are not applicable in case of pokerstove since posting screenshots and sharing pokerstove savefiles would be overkill; it's two lines of text after all. Which is why a number of people have decided to paste this output in their posts.

Textoutput of StoxEv would very rapidly become complex and unreadable as the number of different sublines and subsublines increases, which is why i felt screenshots and savefiles were a better way to go.

Asuming that sharing savefiles is not too much trouble at 2p2, do you think textoutput would still have added value?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lateksi GTO+/CardRunnersEV?
I was thinking something like this, here's an example from QQproblem.stx:

Active players: UTG ($1000), UTG+3 ($1000), Button ($1000)

UTG raises to $35 (AA-66, AKs-AQs, AKo) Eq: 0% Ev: 82.01
UTG+3 raises to $120 (AA-66, AKs-AQs, AKo) Eq: 0% Ev: 2.22
Button raises to $1000 (QQ) Eq: 43.5% Ev: -70.01
UTG calls 21.9% (AA-KK, AKs), folds 78.1% (QQ-66, AQs, AKo) Eq: 28.3% Ev: 117.01
etc etc

Or something like that. Something that adds a little bit of BBcode to make the hand a bit more readable, like with forum HH converters. And a similar raw text output for our own records. People are copy/pasting their PokerStove calculations in hand posts and I think this could be way more valuable
03-25-2008 , 10:10 AM
guess not, good point, yeah i can see how text would become pretty unreadable in complex calculations.
03-28-2008 , 07:01 AM
I cannot make this simple hand run. I says too many errors.

03-28-2008 , 07:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by poker_n00b GTO+/CardRunnersEV?
I cannot make this simple hand run. I says too many errors.

You need to assign a range to the big blind and small blind.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll add a more specific error message for this.

By the way: If you want the tree to calculate EV it will need to know what to do in all situations. So for instance in the first decision you probably want to bet the >=mp+fd OR fold. Also, my guess is that you want to bet
- at least middle pair
- OR a flushdraw
You need two conditions, one for at least middle pair, one for flushdraw. Now you say you want >=mp AND a flushdraw.


Edit: I'm working on the video manual right now (beat: I am now 100% convinced that I am not the next Robert deNiro). It should clear a lot of things up. At least that is my intent.

Last edited by scylla; 03-28-2008 at 07:42 AM.
03-28-2008 , 09:31 PM
thanks!

i think this program is really powerful in good hands.

I saw one of the tutorial hands, AKs versus some range. And there was a river bet. Now is there a way to calculate a riverbet that generates max ev, instead of trial and error by tuping in the amount?

Also, I think THERE SHOULD BE definately be a slider for amounts. now it takes way to long to define dollar thresholds for calls, bets and raise and stuff. Way too much clicks. For example, when u hover over the amount, and scroll the mouse up or down, the amount COULD change by 1 big blind - extremely handy. This would be extremely time saving. In other words all the parameters of the hands should be entered easily, instead of wading through numerous pop-ups.

Another point is that you might want to adjust the interface shapes and colors, when you're ready with the coding and stuff. Make it even more intuitive. I really really like the traverse tree setup of poker hand.

Sorry if i come off as bit of demanding, but i really plan to use this software a lot, even mroe than PT, so it better be extremely good!
03-28-2008 , 09:42 PM
Another point, have u thought about making the tree expand downwards? That way screenshots of larger hands could be easily read and posted.

Another minor annoyance, when I hover over some range, a pop up comes up with the exact range. could this popup be hooked to right under my mouse arrow, instead of blocking my sight by popping it up in the fixed place?
03-28-2008 , 09:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by poker_n00b GTO+/CardRunnersEV?
thanks!
i think this program is really powerful in good hands.

I saw one of the tutorial hands, AKs versus some range. And there was a river bet. Now is there a way to calculate a riverbet that generates max ev, instead of trial and error by tuping in the amount?
Yes there is.
By making a graph, possibly in a "valuebet"-setup. See the manual for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poker_n00b GTO+/CardRunnersEV?
Also, I think THERE SHOULD BE definately be a slider for amounts. now it takes way to long to define dollar thresholds for calls, bets and raise and stuff. Way too much clicks. For example, when u hover over the amount, and scroll the mouse up or down, the amount COULD change by 1 big blind - extremely handy. This would be extremely time saving. In other words all the parameters of the hands should be entered easily, instead of wading through numerous pop-ups.
Yes this is one of the things that I'm toying around with in my head. But first I have to finish the video manual! And let me tell you, it's harder than I thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poker_n00b GTO+/CardRunnersEV?
Another point is that you might want to adjust the interface shapes and colors, when you're ready with the coding and stuff. Make it even more intuitive. I really really like the traverse tree setup of poker hand.
The current setup is the best I could come up with. If you have a suggestion for improvement I'd love to hear it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by poker_n00b GTO+/CardRunnersEV?
Sorry if i come off as bit of demanding, but i really plan to use this software a lot, even mroe than PT, so it better be extremely good!
Lol

      
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