He can charge what he likes for it, even more than huge corporate software packages if he likes, but I suspect the price chosen is:
(1) not going to attract many customers, and
(2) creates an excellent incentive for anyone producing a free or cheap alternative

[I'm waiting for (2)]

Hi Greg. Firstly, fyp. It's just that prices are very transparent these days and people love to compare. $15,- a month is just way too much COMPARED to other poker software. Of course i can afford $15,- a month, but i really don't want to pay 180 dollar a year for SaT.

I'll advise you to dramatically lower your prices, in order to keep the customers coming. When stack and tile has reached maturity, you can afford to raise your price. You'll just scare people away from such a great program this way.

Good luck and of course i will return to your website in order to see if pricing has changed.

Keep up the good work!

I was also using only the hotkey function of this program for Boss Media/International Poker Network and I was plainning to paid for SaT when it turn commercial but $15/month is just way too rich for me.

if u play across multiple sites 15usd a month for this is very fair...however for the market im unsure Greg if its optimal.

Have u thought of (if even possible) to correlate price for number of sites used. Or like a light version where u can add max 3 sites and a full version and have different price for em.

For myself playing across >5 networks seeing this come together has just been a dream come true, and 15 usd monthly i think is very fair pricing for your product.

But i think to get out the full potential u have to come up with something here Greg that gets u both the die hard ppl who wont be able to live without this product and those who can but rather have the product but wont really be intrested in paying 180 yearly for it.

GL so happy to see it all together, have still been busy with IRL stuff and still on break from poker but i cant wait to see this in action, i hope it all came together good in the end and the product is stable and will be a hit on the market so u can ripe the benefits of the work u put in.

Well done!!!

Moderator, please can this thread be moved to the commercial software forum?

Hi Greg

I'm glad to see that you have finally put up your great tool for sale. It's only fair that you get rewarded for your work and effort.

Personally I think the program is worth the money you are asking for and I would pay it. I also agree that a monthly/re-occurring subscription is the best way forward to keep a developer such as yourself interested and continue to generate revenue.

However, it is only natural that players will compare your tool to other poker tools. HEM doesn't charge a lot (nor recurring) but I assume it has a very large customer base compared to your and markets their product a lot etc. where as you are tackling it all by yourself with a much smaller selection of customers.

The longer term pricing options seem a good idea as well. Good luck and congrats on getting this for sale

well for me, Office doesn't make me any money. thats why i dont pay for it. i use OpenOffice for the random document i need to write. PT3 makes me a lot of money, so i'm willing to pay for it. i reckon SaT helps ppl make more money too.

i appreciate the kind words. sorry that it will be out of range for you, i understand that if youre only using a fold hotkey, its kind of overkill maybe i can add more features in the future that you will find useful.



the program will cease to exist anyway if i dont feel like its worth my time to continue working on it and answering support. so something is gonna change on my end, for better or worse. either SaT succeeds and therefore its worth it for me to continue, or it fails and i ditch the project and move on

i am reconsidering things based upon this feedback. but the numbers need to make sense for me too. and i would rather have 100 users at $15/month than 1000 at $1.50. right now i'm seeing if i can do long term subscriptoins and offer discount. certainly a yearly discount is in order for loyal users of the program who would commit to using it for a year


i have thought of this. i have also thought of a lite version which would restrict based on number of tables, say < 8 tables is the lite version at cheaper price. i haven't ruled it out yet. i just don't know how difficult it would be to enforce. i just wanted to get this thing out.


thanks guys. i really appreciate the sentiment. thanks for the support through this

I believe you are right about SaT helping people to make money. It is the fact that more people can make money using MS Office that allows to sell it fairly cheaply! But with a closer analogy, wouldn't it be correct to say that saying PT3 has a lot more functionality than SaT, has required much larger resources to develop, and is very much cheaper (10 years of PT2 costs $100, 10 years of SaT can be extrapolated to cost about $1800).

But this doesn't really matter. If your business is software development I see no reason why you should not pick the price that maximises your long-term revenue, but am not sure that you have done so.

Hey Greg, congrats on getting it for sale. However, $15/month seems like a ridiculous price for this product. Compare this product and its support to TableNinja, HoldemManager etc. It's way overpriced.

If you want to make it a monthly fee, make it something like $6.95-$10 a month. It should get more people interested and willing to pay it. Which would result in more money for you in the end.

Further I recommend anyone to use this software when playing more then 10 tables.

as good as this software is, im afraid im going to stop using it now. monthly subscription is a big no no for me. Its like getting credit to gamble. dangerous path

i don't see why it's such a big deal to some people! First of all I am sure they all have been using the software for a while and enjoyed it. Everybody likes to use somebody's work and not pay for it. When it comes to paying money, now they find that the program is not worth it etc. So you can just stop using it. Very simple. But they bottom line is YOU DO WANT TO USE IT! You just don't want to pay for using it. I understand for some people might be too much! I sympathize. But I also think that Greg has to be fairly rewarded for his time and effort (note: for you guys to use).

I'm curious to see how this will work out for you Mr. nice. In any case good luck. If you can make this work you're setting a good precedent for us developers

It strikes me as odd that you joined 2+2 yesterday, made a beeline for this thread and proceeded to call everyone a cheapskate who thinks the price of this product is unrealistic.

If I didnt know better I would say you opened a second 2+2 account to hide your identity

Every post you have made on this forum is in this thread.. its pretty odd...

Its not that people dont want to pay for it. Make the software $50 for a license and a lot of people buy it.

$15 per month * 12 * 10 = 1800$'s... after 10 years I would have paid $1800 for this program that manages tables wheras holdem manager only costed about a $100bucks and has a way larger impact on my winrate then SaT has.

sigh, 15usd a month .... really that big of a deal - amazing.

market for HEM and PT3 to SaT u cant compare - i doubt SaT even has 1% of the market those has.

Greg this would be my idea if possible,

sell it as a product and charge like 50 usd and limit the product to run at 2 sites of choice

for ppl who want to run it =>3 sites charge the monthly (someone that plays 3+ sites gotta be ****ing joking me if 15 bucks a month is an issue.)

Greg u done an amazing job, i hope u not being put down with this **** now. Just come up with some idea that makes everyone happy and start getting in money for it, that u well deserve.

think this is pretty unfair logic

Could aswell say, a rough estimate is that i would earn 15usd extra per day i play with SaT, play 20 days , 20*15 - 15(cost) =275 per month, 275*12 = 3300 per year, 33K per decade, and 330K per decennium.

Well there is no mystery. Greg is my boyfriend, and only I have seen how much time he's spent working on the program, answering email, providing support for you guys. Yes I think he deserves to be payed for his time and effort. Simply my opinion.
I wish good luck in making a lot of money, wheather you use the software or not. But if the price is too high for you, just don't buy and stop complaining!

I was planning to buy SaT even tho I only use it for the hotkey functions (fold, check/call, bet/raise). Before the annoucement, I thought the price might be between $35 to $50 flat. .

The developer have every right to charge whatever he thinks it is worth for his time and effort but customers will just not buy if price is not right. For those who play the higher limits and many tables, price can even be higher but for those that play microstakes, price is too high IMHO. Especially for someone like me who uses just a small part of the program.

Nice to see mystery solve. Logical and great that you support him. I wish SaT the best of luck.

thank you for your post and support. i understand that someone like you who only uses a portion of the software, maybe its not worth it for you. its up to you to decide. but thank you for taking the responsibility yourself for your decision, and respecting my choice as well. i play mid stakes so this project is a big pay cut

come on, i'm not hiding my identity. i've been extremely candid about my reasoning behind the pricing. my gf surprised me when she told me she came to my defense. i felt like i got punk'd


thanks, you know how hard it is as a one-man show


PTR was a monthly subscription too. no one complained about their pricing, but then again, there was no one to complain to. i'm bringing this upon myself. now i'm ending it.


thank you. someone gets it. dont think too hard, you might actually find a way to view SaT pricing as cheap..


see my earlier posts. i'm of the opinion that you have it backwards. TN and HEM are way underpriced, which skews your comparison. once they realize this, poker software prices will probably increase. if so, sorry if i'm the one who spurs that movement, but i dont have 100k users where i can charge cheaper like they do. we'll see how many people actually buy SaT; maybe $15/month STILL will not be enough for me to continue (which is actually what i'm expecting right now. i reserve the right to change prices at any time too).

finally,

a yearly pricing option is now available. keep checking back, maybe i will put some other pricing options too.

anyway, i am going to move past this pricing issue. see my previous posts already, that should cover everything. lets leave it at this: if SaT is not worth the price to you, then thats ok, don't purchase it. no hard feelings. hopefully you've gotten a lot out of the 1.5 years of free use. if it is worth the price to you, great, i'm happy to have you as a customer. i think its worth the price, but i'm biased

i'm asking that we can get this back on topic for support help and feature requests. i want to focus on development again. i've just downloaded carbon poker so i will try to get Merge support

thanks

Thankyou greg for considering the yearly option. I will be purchasing

$120 for the reassurance I will have sat for a year and good value for the time I have used it for free.

it is.

But everything is relative.

15 bucks is cheap considering the magnitude of the program,
the risk of u putting in hundreds or probably thousands or hours into this realizing it just not gonna work and end it in its beta stage with 0usd in return for the work. If 15 bucks monthly is overpriced than i doubt we see close to any new project in software.

However with that said, u do have a number of people that just seem to use SaT at just one site, and maybe for them u maybe need to find an option in price (since they also not really using SaT full potential but a limited part of it). But for anyone using this across networks 15 usd is nutting.

I did think it was out of character.

Then it turned out to be your GF.... I was close, the posts seemed to come from someone with an emotional investment in S+T. It was unlikely to be someone who just bought S+T because you have only just launched your own forum, right now you kind have have to be on 2+2 to know about S+T. So it just seemed more likely that it was you or a friend who of yours than some random stranger who had somehow learned of S+T 2 days ago, joined 2+2 come straight to the S+T thread and then proceeded to argue with strangers. (thats dedication because anyone fitting that description would still be on their S+T trial period!).

Im kind of glad it was your GF .. because otherwise you have a stalker

I know we disagree on the price, and I have said all that I have to say.

I will say that S+T is a good product, and the disagreement surrounding price dosent take away from that.

Best wishes

How does the monthly subscription work? Is it taken at the same date on each month? - so I can cancel if taking a few weeks off and resubscribe when starting again. Or is it purchasing a month at a time?

you are billed on the same date each month. you can cancel at anytime, but your subscription will remain active until the end of your paid period. so if you buy today (may 18th), cancel tomorrow, you will still have access until June 18th, and then your subscription will expire and youll have to sign back up