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Old 01-24-2012, 01:24 PM   #26
Mirakulix
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Re: SnG Solver

Dunno what was wrong, rebooted my computer and everything works perfectly fine now!
I' really like the graphik - pretty impressed so far!
Why do the ranges differ slightly from Holdemressources.net when the predictive simulation is disabled? Is this because you use different restricted ranges than holdem ressources?
If I buy the current version now will the update to the HH-importer be for free?
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Old 01-24-2012, 01:33 PM   #27
Mirakulix
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Re: SnG Solver

Sended you some HH's from Pacific. They are already processed by HEM as this is the format they normally have when we make session reviews. Should I turn off HEM and send you some raw HH's?
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Old 01-24-2012, 04:24 PM   #28
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Re: SnG Solver

Mirakulix,

Glad to hear you're up and running

The ranges (with PS disabled) are going to be a little different than holdemresources for couple reasons. Differences in handrankings is going to be one of them. Also differences in how we get the equilibrium to converge...

To be frank, generating a Nash equilibrium (or approximation thereof) for more than 2 players is dodgy business. For starters, there is no guarantee that there is only one solution... and they can be very numerically unstable... So, in order to guarantee that some kind of answer emerges at all in a timely manner you've got to pull out some "dirty tricks". And since I dont really know the details of what holdemresources is doing in this regard, its probably a bit different than what I'm doing.

Yes, any upgrades for the foreseeable future will be free. And I've got a lot of good stuff planned for that future.

I got your HHs... thanks. I dont really know if/how HEM might mangle the HHs after processing them... so I guess if you could send me a few before they go through HEM that would be good.

Thanks for the feedback!
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Old 01-24-2012, 05:20 PM   #29
yukoncpa
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Re: SnG Solver

Hey, I like your graphs too but the graph in the lower left is not color blind friendly. I am red-green colorblind ( which is common among men) so the greens and pinks look the same to me. After hitting "solve it", I can click on ranges for every player except hero. For example, I can click on the bottom of a box that says - "call 1.4% (equil)" and a wonderful graph shows up where I can see all the colors. What I cannot do is click on the bottom of the Hero's box to see the same blue and yellow and red color range graph.

Any chance that you could change things so that I can click on Hero's range as well and see the color blind friendly ranges?

Last edited by yukoncpa; 01-24-2012 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 01-24-2012, 06:58 PM   #30
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Re: SnG Solver

Hi jason

You said that ICM is dead. Analising the results with the sngwiz and sngsolver i cant see to much diference.

What can you say to me and other people who are unsure about what programe to use cause we dont know each results are more reliable.

PS: send me the press release.
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Old 01-25-2012, 05:03 AM   #31
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Re: SnG Solver

yukoncpa,

You raise an important issue... I'll try to get in some kind of alternate/custom palette mechanism soon.

Pagasses,

In many situations, the results from SnG Solver and ICM-based programs will be nearly the same... these will be spots where the stacks are relatively deep and there is less of a "bubble effect" going on. But things can change quickly as the stacks get shallower and the blinds approach...

At the risk of making things more confusing, let me make an analogy to physics...

Modern physics describes a few fundamental forces in nature... gravity, electro-magnetism, and the nuclear forces. When considering the total force between two objects, all of the forces are present, but depending on the scale of the objects, the different forces become more or less important.

At the scale of planets and stars, gravity is by far the most dominant and the other forces are impossible to detect. This is like when the stacks are deep in a tournament. When the stack/blind ratio is very large, having to pay the blinds doesnt really matter and stack size is the only thing we need to calculate equity.

But when we consider a smaller scale... like the force of the magnet stuck to my refrigerator door, or the force that binds the molecules of the refrigerator itself, then the electro-magnetic force dominates over gravity. The gravity is still there, but it takes a back seat to the contribution of EM at this smaller scale. This is like the when the stacks get short and having to take the blinds means the loss of fold equity.

Finally, within the atom itself, the nuclear forces that keep the atomic nuclei from flying apart are far stronger than either EM or gravity at such a small scale. Again, the other forces are still there, but nowhere near as important. This is like when the stacks are smaller still and a micro stack UTG is at risk of busting and the "bubble effect" takes over.

In this analogy, ICM is like a tool that can only measure gravity. Its fine for measuring the force between planets... but terrible for measuring the forces of smaller objects. SnG Solver and its Predictive Simulation algorithm is sensitive to all of the forces... you can get accurate measurements at any scale.

Anyways, I hope that made some kind of sense. I've clearly been sitting at my computer too long and I'm starting to lose my mind...

But another thing to consider is the "edge" adjustment in SNGWiz. The fact that the "edge" adjustment exists at all is proof that there is something wrong with ICM based calculations. Any situation where you need to add in some kind of "edge" correction in order to make the results seem acceptable is a spot where ICM has failed. SnG Solver needs no such corrections to its results.

Also, dont forget that SnG Solver has some other things going for it besides Predictive Simulation... Like automatic calculation of approximate Nash strategies for all opponents means never forgetting to have to set opponent ranges. How many times have you read a thread in STT Strategy where somebody posts a sngwiz analysis thats ridiculous because they forgot to adjust all the default ranges?

Plus there's cool stuff like the EV-RMSD graph which, I must say, has not been getting enough love... but I'm sure you guys will come around eventually.

After the next update is out, I'll be working on some experiments to quantify just how much better SnG Solver is over the competition. I expect to be able to make a statement like: "If you use some other software to develop your strategies, you are being exploited by x% by someone using SnG Solver!"


Okay, tl;dr... right? I totally took your bait, Pagasses
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Old 01-25-2012, 05:14 AM   #32
Mirakulix
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Re: SnG Solver

Quote:
Originally Posted by sng_jason View Post
The Hero's range as shown in the Table view is the sum of all the hands that are +EV vs the ranges of the opponents. This is often slightly different than the calculated equilibrium range for the same position. This is because the equilibrium ranges (which are then used as the default opponent ranges) are restricted to a linear handranking to help speed up the calculations.
So you basically calculate an equilibrium with restricted ranges, let hero adjust with unrestricted ranges and give villains no chance to counteradjust to the new range. So we basically have the restricted equilibrium range and an exploitive range in the table view? I see that it's to much work to give all players unrestricted ranges and I like the idea of giving hero unrestricted ranges (One of the biggest flaws of non beta holdemressources IMO) but there should be at least one point where you can see an unrestricted range that has the exact same percantages as the restricted equilibrium had. Otherwise you will often get 2 different ranges that both contain hands that shouldn't be in there.
E.g. I solved for the good old Full Tilt Super Turbo starting scenario. (Each player starts with 300c, Blinds are 15/30)
Equilibrium says I should push 11.9%. Including thrashy hands like , A9o and 44, but no suited Aces.
The table view got rid of these hands and pushes hands that play better against these tight calling ranges. The problem is that it pushes now 15.1% including hands like JQo, KTo, K9s. I feel these hands are generally bad to push in the first place but more important it's definitely not unexploitable and once regs see me pushing that wide from UTG they will adjust and I get completely owned every time I push them.
So basically I'd like to see the 11.9% that are best and close to unexploitable be pushed from UTG.
BTW holdemressources and holdemressources.net push 8.6% / 8.8% from UTG. SnG solver without PS 10.3%.

Obviously the real equilibrium isn't found yet but it's hard for us to see which tool has the better educated guesses. I'd really like to see a match SnG Solver versus holdemressources
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Old 01-25-2012, 05:26 AM   #33
Mirakulix
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Re: SnG Solver

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Originally Posted by ginandbread View Post
Bump!

How is it going?

One big idea, maybe mentioned before...

I don't know how much information Sng solver needs to remember when hand is solved (cause i see that everything we do afterwards is fast so probably already computed) but if it isn't too much, idea is to make some kind of a buffer that remembers everything about hand. For example we solve and analyze hand "A", then we solve hand "B" and then we want to go back to hand "A" because we missed something. Now solver doesn't solve the hand cause solution is already in buffer and it's instantly shown.

If that's possible next step would be to make a button that allows us to solve multiple hands, and with that you get rid of most annoying thing in sng solver which is waiting, it's always between 5 sec to 1 minute and this time is too short to do anything else, so you can only watch progress bar slowly turning green.

The key for hands would be stack sizes, blind level and payout structure.
If all that matches a hand in buffer, copy information from buffer, else solve hand...
You can actuall multitable SnG solver. Just open it a second time and do the calculation there while table 1 is still working. Just like you do it on the poker tables
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Old 01-30-2012, 03:57 AM   #34
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Re: SnG Solver

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirakulix View Post
... So we basically have the restricted equilibrium range and an exploitive range in the table view?
Yup, that pretty much sums it up. I'll keep you ideas about the various range% combos in mind. Ultimately, I intend to try to move to completely unrestricted ranges in all positions... but I have few things planned to do first that I think will be even more significant.

Quote:
... once regs see me pushing that wide from UTG they will adjust and I get completely owned every time I push them.
Well certainly if you're pushing with an exploitive range, you open the possibility of being exploited yourself... of course then you can re-adjust to your opponents range... until they re-adjust and so on and so on... until you both end up back at the equilibrium.

Quote:
....it's hard for us to see which tool has the better educated guesses.
Indeed. I hope to be able to have a way to settle this in the near future... (cue mad scientist laughter and hand wringing)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirakulix View Post
You can actuall multitable SnG solver. Just open it a second time and do the calculation there while table 1 is still working. Just like you do it on the poker tables
You sure can do this... its going to use a ton of memory though. But it does raise a good point... It should be technically possible for multiple instances of the program to share the 700MB of pre-calced data. This would dramatically reduce memory usage per instance and make "multitabling" SnG Solver much more practical. I shall put this on my to-do list.
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Old 01-30-2012, 05:02 PM   #35
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Re: SnG Solver

hi!

It will be very good, if opinition of calculating situation with 3bet (when villian raise with range A, and we know, that he call our push on range B) will be accepted
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Old 01-31-2012, 02:58 PM   #36
yukoncpa
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Re: SnG Solver

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirakulix View Post
So you basically calculate an equilibrium with restricted ranges, let hero adjust with unrestricted ranges and give villains no chance to counteradjust to the new range. So we basically have the restricted equilibrium range and an exploitive range in the table view? I see that it's to much work to give all players unrestricted ranges and I like the idea of giving hero unrestricted ranges (One of the biggest flaws of non beta holdemressources IMO) but there should be at least one point where you can see an unrestricted range that has the exact same percantages as the restricted equilibrium had. Otherwise you will often get 2 different ranges that both contain hands that shouldn't be in there.
E.g. I solved for the good old Full Tilt Super Turbo starting scenario. (Each player starts with 300c, Blinds are 15/30)
Equilibrium says I should push 11.9%. Including thrashy hands like , A9o and 44, but no suited Aces.
The table view got rid of these hands and pushes hands that play better against these tight calling ranges. The problem is that it pushes now 15.1% including hands like JQo, KTo, K9s. I feel these hands are generally bad to push in the first place but more important it's definitely not unexploitable and once regs see me pushing that wide from UTG they will adjust and I get completely owned every time I push them.
So basically I'd like to see the 11.9% that are best and close to unexploitable be pushed from UTG.
BTW holdemressources and holdemressources.net push 8.6% / 8.8% from UTG. SnG solver without PS 10.3%.

Obviously the real equilibrium isn't found yet but it's hard for us to see which tool has the better educated guesses. I'd really like to see a match SnG Solver versus holdemressources
Hi

Maybe I'm confused, but I thought that with multiple opponents in a game, being game theory optimal and being unexploitable are not synonymous. For example, in the beauty contest game that Phil Newall talks about in the, Intelligent Poker Player, the game theory optimal solution is zero ( whether heads up or multi player). When playing heads up, you will always tie or win when selecting zero, but when selecting the correct answer ( or game theory optimal answer ), zero in this case, in the multiplayer game, you will almost assuredly lose since your opponents aren't "playing along". It's my understanding that game theory optimal solutions in multiplayer games will guide you in the right direction but can never assure you of a situation that will always result in a tie or a win.

Am I wrong here? I do get easily confused

Last edited by yukoncpa; 01-31-2012 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 02-02-2012, 11:48 PM   #37
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Re: SnG Solver

Groging,

Indeed, that would be very good. Support for actions other than push/fold pre-flop is on my to-do list and I consider it a high-priority feature.


yukoncpa,

I dont have that book, so I'm not familiar with the specific example you cite. But I can tell you a few things that I do know that might apply...

"Game Theory Optimal" is kind of a weird phrase that I have only ever heard used amongst poker players. It is, to my knowledge, not a term that you will find in more generic texts about game theory. Every time I have ever seen it used, its been as a synonym for an "unexploitable" strategy. So, in general (as long as we're talking about poker), GTO and unexploitable and Nash equilibrium all end up being the same thing.

In other games, there might not exist a Nash equilibrium, but in poker games that we play (even more then 2 players) there always is. So, there is always an unexploitable strategy.

If Newall has some kind of definition for a GTO strategy that is not always unexploitable, then thats a new one for me.
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Old 02-03-2012, 12:14 AM   #38
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Re: SnG Solver

Jason. I just tried downloading the new update and got a system error update. It says program can't start because libmmd.dll is missing from my computer. Try reinstalling to fix problem. Do I need to uninstall/reinstall the whole program? Hope not.
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Old 02-03-2012, 12:22 AM   #39
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Re: SnG Solver

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Originally Posted by paul rizzo View Post
Jason. I just tried downloading the new update and got a system error update. It says program can't start because libmmd.dll is missing from my computer. Try reinstalling to fix problem. Do I need to uninstall/reinstall the whole program? Hope not.
No, you should not need to reinstall the whole thing...

Sorry about the error... looking into it now....
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Old 02-03-2012, 12:32 AM   #40
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Re: SnG Solver

Okay.... I had recently upgraded the compiler I use but I forgot to update the installer with the appropriate redistributable DLL package...

You can either wait a bit for me to put up a new installer or you can download and install directly yourself here:

http://www.sngsolver.com/downloads/w...2011.8.278.msi

This is an installer package from Intel
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Old 02-03-2012, 12:53 AM   #41
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Re: SnG Solver

Okay.. the "update" installer packages now include the correct DLLs. The "full" installer takes a while to build and wont be up for a few more minutes.

Paul, can you let me know if this fixes your problem? (btw Paul... wow you're fast you already d/l'd, installed, and posted your problem before I even got to post my "1.0.3 is here" annoucement. heh.)
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Old 02-03-2012, 12:57 AM   #42
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Re: SnG Solver

whoops... hang on. wrong files...
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Old 02-03-2012, 01:03 AM   #43
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Re: SnG Solver

okay NOW the correct 1.0.3 update installer is up. The correct size for that file ~12MB.
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Old 02-03-2012, 12:32 PM   #44
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Re: SnG Solver

Hi, I just tried to upgrade from the download page (both Europe, then NA) and got this error:

The program can't start because libmmd.dll is missing from your computer. Try reinstalling the program to fix this problem.
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Old 02-03-2012, 01:05 PM   #45
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Re: SnG Solver

Quote:
Originally Posted by sng_jason View Post
Groging,

Indeed, that would be very good. Support for actions other than push/fold pre-flop is on my to-do list and I consider it a high-priority feature.


yukoncpa,

I dont have that book, so I'm not familiar with the specific example you cite. But I can tell you a few things that I do know that might apply...

"Game Theory Optimal" is kind of a weird phrase that I have only ever heard used amongst poker players. It is, to my knowledge, not a term that you will find in more generic texts about game theory. Every time I have ever seen it used, its been as a synonym for an "unexploitable" strategy. So, in general (as long as we're talking about poker), GTO and unexploitable and Nash equilibrium all end up being the same thing.

In other games, there might not exist a Nash equilibrium, but in poker games that we play (even more then 2 players) there always is. So, there is always an unexploitable strategy.

If Newall has some kind of definition for a GTO strategy that is not always unexploitable, then thats a new one for me.
Thanks for this summary.
Also, I lent his book out so I was paraphrasing. I may very well have completely misrepresented what he said.
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Old 02-03-2012, 01:15 PM   #46
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Re: SnG Solver

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sly Caveat View Post
Hi, I just tried to upgrade from the download page (both Europe, then NA) and got this error:

The program can't start because libmmd.dll is missing from your computer. Try reinstalling the program to fix this problem.
Hmm... sorry about that. It appears there is still something wrong with my installer package. I'm working on a fix now, but if you install this package:

http://www.sngsolver.com/downloads/w...2011.8.278.msi

it will fix the problem
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Old 02-03-2012, 01:56 PM   #47
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Re: SnG Solver

Okay gang, if you download the 1.0.3 update installer NOW, it should work correctly. Sorry for the trouble.
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Old 02-08-2012, 09:02 PM   #48
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Re: SnG Solver

Hi!

I'm trying to paste a Stars hand history but it does not work. I get a message "cant parse torunament line". The hand history looks like this:

PokerStars Hand #74949640622: Tournament #510763066, $6.71+$0.29 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2012/02/03 16:52:59 CET [2012/02/03 10:52:59 ET]
Table '510763066 1' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: alexgto1 (498 in chips)
Seat 2: android547 (530 in chips)
Seat 3: jobekr (478 in chips)
Seat 4: Xsign (498 in chips)
Seat 5: mtmtmt2005 (498 in chips)
Seat 6: Amagetya (498 in chips)
alexgto1: posts the ante 2
android547: posts the ante 2
jobekr: posts the ante 2
Xsign: posts the ante 2
mtmtmt2005: posts the ante 2
Amagetya: posts the ante 2
jobekr: posts small blind 10
Xsign: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Xsign [Ks 8s]
mtmtmt2005: folds
Amagetya: folds
alexgto1: folds
android547: folds
jobekr: folds
Uncalled bet (10) returned to Xsign
Xsign collected 32 from pot
Xsign: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 32 | Rake 0
Seat 1: alexgto1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: android547 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: jobekr (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: Xsign (big blind) collected (32)
Seat 5: mtmtmt2005 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Amagetya folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Regards, Jorgen.
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Old 02-08-2012, 09:16 PM   #49
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Re: SnG Solver

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Originally Posted by Fringobing View Post
Hi!

I'm trying to paste a Stars hand history but it does not work. I get a message "cant parse torunament line". The hand history looks like this:

...
Yeah sorry about that. There's a bug interpreting some PokerStars hand histories... I've got it fixed for the next update (which I'm just wrapping up now. So I hope to have it up pretty soon.). Thanks for the feedback.
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Old 02-09-2012, 05:58 AM   #50
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Re: SnG Solver

Okay gang, version 1.0.4 is ready for download.

Support for Ongame hand histories is now in, and I fixed a problem with reading some HHs from PokerStars.

I didnt really go over what went into the 1.0.3 update, so I'll also mention a few things of note from that version that you might not have noticed...

- Hand history import! At last. Support is still relatively basic, but will eventually become more sophisticated. You can either paste in a single hand, or load an entire multi-hand file and pick the one you're interested in. Currently supported sites are: PokerStars, Everleaf, Cassava/888/Pacific, and now Ongame. Definitely send me the HHs for any other site you'd like to see supported.
- Customizable colors. From the Tools->Options menu you can now choose an alternate color palette or create your own. I find myself using the "Contrast 1" palette a lot... it's very soothing.
- Better performance. I spent a lot of time re-working the equilibrium calculation to make it more efficient... depending on the exact game setup, you might see as much as a 40% reduction in solve times. Also, if you have a CPU that supports SSE4.1 instructions, SnG Solver will now take advantage of that fact... and that's worth another 5% or so speedup.


I mentioned this in another thread (in STT Strategy), but I'll mention it here too...

I've finished writing a simulator that plays complete STTs from start to finish... a perfect testbed to compare different strategy algorithms and equity models. I'm currently running a matchup between ICM-based Nash strategies and Nash strategies based on the Predictive Simulation model from SnG Solver. Im using a 6max format, with a "Super Turbo" type structure. 10BB starting stacks and 65/35 payouts. 3 players use PSM-Nash and 3 use ICM-Nash. It takes about 1 minute to simulate one complete STT, and I intend to play about 10000 simulated games... so it's going to take a while to finish

But even after 1200 games, I think the results are pretty interesting...


So, for anyone who was wondering just how much better than ICM you can get... the answer just might be: good enough to turn an ICM-based Nash strategy into a -4% RoI loser...
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