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04-22-2015, 08:07 PM   #76
BlackLoter
journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 343
Re: Simple Postflop

Quote:
 Originally Posted by TeelXp - The EV of fold for Kings is equals 0 because you wouldn't lose chips acting that way and the EV of call is positive bacause first player plays with Queens 31.5%.
It doesn't sound right to me: if you are mixing between the 2 actions the solution can only be a Nash equilibrium if the 2 actions you are mixing have the same ev because of the indifference principle.
Obviously there can be a small difference because this is just an epsilon NE, or it may be possible to have bigger differences if one of the action was taken very rarely or if the node was reached very rarely, but this is not the case.

As for the ev of folding we certainly agree and the software does too.
On the other hand, when you call with kings you are sometimes winning against queens, thus getting +30 chips (as compared to folding), but you are also sometimes losing against aces, giving you -10 chips. The indifference principle tells us that opponent is 3 times as likely to show up with aces than with queens, thus making both the call and the fold 0 ev.

The computed solution seems accurate within the nash distance, in fact ip player is betting aces 65.14% of the times and queens 21.66% of the times, ie about 3 times as often. If we use these figures, the ev of calling should result -0.02, still accurate imo, but the software shows an ev of +2.509, which doesn't make sense at all.

I'm adding a screenshot here so that the spot can be reproduced and debugged, the range for both players is QdQh, KdKh, AdAh

 04-22-2015, 08:29 PM #77 BlackLoter journeyman   Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 343 Re: Simple Postflop Some more requests that would significantly improve the software imo: - it would be very useful to see the ev for hands in the ip range at the start of the street, before the oop player has acted. It's something it's currently possible in gtorb. I think it should be pretty easy to calculate those numbers (you could just show oop range when the root of the actions tree is selected, which currently doesn't display anything) - it would be very useful to have a range equity tool to compare the equity of ranges (as written in simple postflop and gtorb). For example I may get deep into the hand after several streets have been played and even more actions have been performed in the current street. When I do, I would like to know, for example, what's the sd equity of the 2 ranges to get an idea who is stronger and how much stronger, or how a hand compares to the range of the opponent for the same reason. Since most hands are played only a fraction of the times there is no tool I can use to make those calculations. - in the "EV show", put figures directly in the table for the ev of each hand rather than simply coloring the cells.
04-24-2015, 08:36 PM   #78
TeelXp

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Pokerland
Posts: 182
Re: Simple Postflop

Quote:
 Originally Posted by BlackLoter It doesn't sound right to me: if you are mixing between the 2 actions the solution can only be a Nash equilibrium if the 2 actions you are mixing have the same ev because of the indifference principle. Obviously there can be a small difference because this is just an epsilon NE, or it may be possible to have bigger differences if one of the action was taken very rarely or if the node was reached very rarely, but this is not the case. As for the ev of folding we certainly agree and the software does too. On the other hand, when you call with kings you are sometimes winning against queens, thus getting +30 chips (as compared to folding), but you are also sometimes losing against aces, giving you -10 chips. The indifference principle tells us that opponent is 3 times as likely to show up with aces than with queens, thus making both the call and the fold 0 ev. The computed solution seems accurate within the nash distance, in fact ip player is betting aces 65.14% of the times and queens 21.66% of the times, ie about 3 times as often. If we use these figures, the ev of calling should result -0.02, still accurate imo, but the software shows an ev of +2.509, which doesn't make sense at all. I'm adding a screenshot here so that the spot can be reproduced and debugged, the range for both players is QdQh, KdKh, AdAh
So, thx for your comments - it was not a critical bug and we have just fixed it.

We will consider your suggestions due the developing of new version.

 04-26-2015, 08:17 AM #79 TeelXp See my Commercial Software thread   Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Pokerland Posts: 182 Re: Simple Postflop We've created skype conference for our customers where they could discuss our program and where we going to publish latest news about program. Those customes who want to enter it just contact me via skype.
 05-07-2015, 07:42 PM #80 TeelXp See my Commercial Software thread   Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Pokerland Posts: 182 Re: Simple Postflop Hello buddies! Today we glad to present you the new version of Simple Postflop - v1.03. We have some pretty stuff in new version: 1. Feature to make varity of roundings for calculated strategies up to pure strategies. There are also included exploitabilities for each rounded result: 2. In the Jobs menu appeared features to move, to rename and to delete tree which was prepared for calculation. 3. In case of lack of RAM for the tree calculation, a notification window appears which shows the required RAM size for calculation: That is all for today
 05-09-2015, 08:42 AM #81 justDgmt grinder     Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 575 Re: Simple Postflop pls could you add rounding to 50%?
 05-13-2015, 04:36 PM #82 justDgmt grinder     Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 575 Re: Simple Postflop this is what happens when i use rounding on the river
05-16-2015, 02:55 AM   #83
TeelXp

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Pokerland
Posts: 182
Re: Simple Postflop

Hello!
Quote:
 Originally Posted by justDgmt pls could you add rounding to 50%?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by justDgmt this is what happens when i use rounding on the river
Could you save the solution and send it to our support email please? We'll work on this issue. Thanks in advance!

 05-23-2015, 06:00 AM #84 Kalupso journeyman   Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 276 Re: Simple Postflop In the suit selection in the range selection window (edit strategy) Clovers and Spades have switched places on my computer. Clovers button is showing Spades and Spades button showing Clovers.
 05-24-2015, 07:53 PM #85 de0 centurion   Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 160 Re: Simple Postflop This software is awesome and I have been loving it so far! I was wondering though if you will ever release a tool that can start solving from preflop maybe with some sort of board abstraction? I would really like to be able to work on my preflop game for shortstack scenarios.
05-30-2015, 07:42 PM   #86
TeelXp

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Pokerland
Posts: 182
Re: Simple Postflop

Hello!
I apologize for the delay in response, I'va took short vacation.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by de0 This software is awesome and I have been loving it so far! I was wondering though if you will ever release a tool that can start solving from preflop maybe with some sort of board abstraction? I would really like to be able to work on my preflop game for shortstack scenarios.
We do not plan to work with any abstractions but still we have some plans on preflop calculations. So, we'll keep inform you about our success in this direction

06-01-2015, 04:23 PM   #87
Zrebna
old hand

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,412
Re: Simple Postflop

Quote:
 Originally Posted by TeelXp Hello! I apologize for the delay in response, I'va took short vacation. We do not plan to work with any abstractions but still we have some plans on preflop calculations. So, we'll keep inform you about our success in this direction
Ah, very happy to hear this as well and yeah, the tool is just rly great and powerful!^^

 06-01-2015, 08:11 PM #88 TeelXp See my Commercial Software thread   Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Pokerland Posts: 182 Re: Simple Postflop Hello! Today we would like to release new version of Simple Postflip v1.04 New version includes the following functionality: 1. Raise editor and feature to switch off donkbet in the bet sizing menu. 2. One more variant of results roundings: 0-50-100% 3. Equity view of the calculated results and equity value for every hand. 4. Editing ranges upon combos 5. Abs % presenting of the graphical table results. 6. Very high accuracy in Standalone version for tight ranges river calculation. That is all for today. Follow us
 06-15-2015, 12:54 AM #89 KrazeeKramer stranger   Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 8 Re: Simple Postflop Hi! Great program but I figured I'd make a few suggestions for improvement. If you could make it so you could clear the turn and river without having to clear the entire situation and re-enter them that would be greatly appreciated. The ability to shrink the window and have horizontal and vertical sliders appear to move around would be also very useful when comparing two or more solutions side by side. Finally a feature where you can additionally display the strategies in terms of their board relation would be absolutely excellent and add add incredible value to the program. You can also include an absolute value of the range in brackets. For example: Bet Strategy: Ace high [3.60%]: - 75% Top Pair [15.00%]: - 75% Pair + Flush Draw[1.00%] - 25% etc. Check Strategy: Ace high [1.20%]: - 25% Top Pair[5.00%]: - 25% Pair + Flush draw[3.00%] - 75% etc. Some strategies overlap (like pair + Flush Draw and Flush Draw for example) so the absolute values in the brackets are necessary to make that distinction more precisely. Here is a picture from CoffeeClacs for an idea of what you could use for the Range Descriptors. Thanks for considering these feature changes!!!
 06-15-2015, 02:55 AM #90 justDgmt grinder     Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 575 Re: Simple Postflop being able to change the flop cards without clearing ranges would be great... its really annoying when i want to run multiple boards with same ranges
06-15-2015, 05:35 PM   #91
TeelXp

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Pokerland
Posts: 182
Re: Simple Postflop

Hello!
Quote:
 Originally Posted by justDgmt being able to change the flop cards without clearing ranges would be great... its really annoying when i want to run multiple boards with same ranges
You could Save Tree (this feature appears after clicking on the Apply Situation button) and then use it instead of Apply Situation for futher calculations. It will use preconfigured sizing strategies and ranges.

06-15-2015, 05:40 PM   #92
TeelXp

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Pokerland
Posts: 182
Re: Simple Postflop

Quote:
 Originally Posted by KrazeeKramer Hi! Great program but I figured I'd make a few suggestions for improvement. If you could make it so you could clear the turn and river without having to clear the entire situation and re-enter them that would be greatly appreciated. The ability to shrink the window and have horizontal and vertical sliders appear to move around would be also very useful when comparing two or more solutions side by side. Finally a feature where you can additionally display the strategies in terms of their board relation would be absolutely excellent and add add incredible value to the program. You can also include an absolute value of the range in brackets. For example: Bet Strategy: Ace high [3.60%]: - 75% Top Pair [15.00%]: - 75% Pair + Flush Draw[1.00%] - 25% etc. Check Strategy: Ace high [1.20%]: - 25% Top Pair[5.00%]: - 25% Pair + Flush draw[3.00%] - 75% etc. Some strategies overlap (like pair + Flush Draw and Flush Draw for example) so the absolute values in the brackets are necessary to make that distinction more precisely. Here is a picture from CoffeeClacs for an idea of what you could use for the Range Descriptors. Thanks for considering these feature changes!!!
Hey!
Great suggestions, thx for it. I think that we'll add them in some of futher releases.

06-15-2015, 07:09 PM   #93
justDgmt
grinder

Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 575
Re: Simple Postflop

Quote:
 Originally Posted by TeelXp Hello! You could Save Tree (this feature appears after clicking on the Apply Situation button) and then use it instead of Apply Situation for futher calculations. It will use preconfigured sizing strategies and ranges.
i ignored this feature for some reason, thx

 06-16-2015, 11:04 PM #94 KrazeeKramer stranger   Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 8 Re: Simple Postflop Thanks for taking my suggestions into consideration, One more thing that would be great to see also is 3 bet sizes per street instead of just 2. I want to see how the solver splits the ranges when a wider variety of bet sizes becomes available... This allows me to see more easily which bet-sizes are favorable with what ranges within a more realistic framework. I understand that adding more bet-sizes slows the computation down significantly but I think if people are willing to make the trade off it should be available as an option. Thank you, thank you!! P.S. Can't wait for the gto pf solution calculator also if that's something you are seriously working on that is awesome!
 06-17-2015, 09:48 AM #95 Duncan33 stranger   Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 3 Re: Simple Postflop Hello, I like your software pretty much, I've already bought an unlimited version. I have I question. Is it possible to allow a bet from player 1 only when player 2 checks on flop? In other words, is it possible to ban donk bet and only allow probe bet? Thanks in advance
 06-17-2015, 10:10 AM #96 mynameiskarl centurion   Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 143 Re: Simple Postflop You can manually add a node (right click) in the tree for a 3rd betsize. And you can manually delete a node to take away to donkbet option.
06-17-2015, 10:11 AM   #97
mynameiskarl
centurion

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 143
Re: Simple Postflop

Quote:
 Originally Posted by TeelXp You could Save Tree (this feature appears after clicking on the Apply Situation button) and then use it instead of Apply Situation for futher calculations. It will use preconfigured sizing strategies and ranges.
While I have learned using this to save time, it would still be easier if you could just edit the board/change betsizes without that.

06-17-2015, 02:09 PM   #98
Duncan33
stranger

Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 3
Re: Simple Postflop

Quote:
 Originally Posted by mynameiskarl You can manually add a node (right click) in the tree for a 3rd betsize. And you can manually delete a node to take away to donkbet option.
I can do that only if I calculate turn, right? But when I calculate flop first (don't know turn card yet) it takes possible donk in future streets in account or am I missing something?

06-17-2015, 09:49 PM   #99
KrazeeKramer
stranger

Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 8
Re: Simple Postflop

Quote:
 Originally Posted by mynameiskarl You can manually add a node (right click) in the tree for a 3rd betsize. And you can manually delete a node to take away to donkbet option.

Okay, yes I can do this and it solves my issue somewhat for multiple flop bet-sizes but the problem is that my flop calculation will only take into account 2 possible betsizes + allin on the turn and river and not any more (yes I can add nodes on turn and river for those calculations but flop calc will already have been done with only 2 available sizes for turn and river).

Not sure how drastic that will change the flop result but it should definitely change it somewhat. Maybe it's the case that multiple bet size for turn and river really slows flop calc to the point where it's not worth it but I'd be curious how slow.

Thanks for the quick replies!

06-17-2015, 09:52 PM   #100
KrazeeKramer
stranger

Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 8
Re: Simple Postflop

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Duncan33 I can do that only if I calculate turn, right? But when I calculate flop first (don't know turn card yet) it takes possible donk in future streets in account or am I missing something?
Duncan is correct....Would be very useful to be able to force strategies like this on turn and river when calculating flop. +9999 to this feature.

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