First, I believe PT3 has some issues regarding EQ for multi-way pots, to name but one. How does PT4 resolve this. Second, will we be able to generate a report that simply does a +- on EQ for a particular hand. In this I'm thinking of tourney players getting all-in plays right.

Impressive, but I've never been a fan of ICM after I learned it is based on an assumption ("A player's chances of winning the tournament equal his share of the total chips.") that I find difficult to ascribe. Perhaps if chip accumulation was linear ICM would make more sense to me, but for those who live by ICM, have at it.

Will SnGs be identified as SnGs and not MTTs? Can someone provide a breakdown of the naming schema? That would provide a raft of information without giving away trade secrets. It would also allow us to provide additional feedback like "oh oh, what about doing this!". eg, will we be able to source HUD data from specific SnG/MTT types?

I'm not trying to poop on anyone's parade, but I still haven't seen anything that would make me switch from PT3.

Will this program be able to do what SNGWiz does ? Since I bought PT3 in August, should I not purchase SNGwiz, and just wait for PT4 ?

It looks that way, yes. Time will tell though we only have a few minutes of video to go on.

Firstly, the ICM stuff looks excellent. However there were a couple of things that were not demo'd in the video:

1) It seems to me that the main advantage of having your ICM calculator (ala SnGWiz) integrated with your hand database is to allow you to quickly and easily review hands and construct accurate ranges for opponents based on hands within your database. While there will always be some estimation of ranges required it would be very useful to be able to, for example, review a hand where it folds to you in the small blind and you are considering a push - in constructing a calling range for the BB, scan hands in the database for similar situations (effective stack sizes, number of players remaining in the tournament, called a SB shove from the BB) and construct a calling range based on the hands we have seen. While a large sample would be required to get an exact range it would let us construct the widest range that contains all hands we have seen BB call with, or see whether his range contains gaps (rather than being a strict top x%) - for example he calls any Ax and any suited connected higher than 67s, but doesn't call KJ, KT, QJ type hands.

2) Once you have constructed these ranges, and used the calculator to decide what a +EV shoving range looks like in that situation, it would be useful to be able to export this information to a player note for that player.

3) It was not clear from the video whether you could use the ICM calculator to tell you what a profitable shoving/calling range was in that spot - it looked like you could give it a range and calculate the $EV of the chipstacks, but not say for a given hand what you should do with particular hands. Or was that what the spreadsheet bit did? Speaking of spreadsheets, will we be able to export these in Excel format or something similar?

4) Is the quiz function based on hands from your database, or are they "invented" either on the fly or by the developers? It might be nice to have the option to review hands from your database in "quiz" format, either by marking hands to be added to the "quiz pool" or by selection at random based on filter criteria (number of players, stack sizes, position etc).

5) Speaking of player notes, it would be useful if we could link from a player note to a particular hand history within the database - that way instead of having to make a note about how a particular hand was played, I could click on a link in the note to open the replayer and see the hand as played.

6) "Red line" graph (ICM $EV adjusted tournament winnings)?

I asked many people in our company about this statement, to our knowledge PT3 has no known long standing issues generating equity in 3 way pots. If u are aware of an issue that hasn't been made public, then please submit a support ticket so we can look into it.

I'm afraid we will not be including a +/- equity report as requested. In PT3 we only show street by street equity in the Hand History Viewer and the replayer for this reason because hot and cold equity as a stat alone is not relevant without correlation to the size of the pot (and the effective stack sizes for implied odds). For example, say you were in a 3 way pot where you were you had 1/3 equity vs. your opponents actual hands but the pot was laying you .8:1 to call, then calling would be an error even though the hand equity shows that you are running even vs. your two opponents. Additionally you may be correct to call vs. the range of hands your opponents are mostly likely holding, while vs. the actual hands you could be a huge dog. This is of course an overly simplistic explanation; let me know if you need us to elaborate.


ICM analysis has long been one of the most requested tools for PokerTracker, inclusion of these features in PT4 are going to make tournament grinders really happy. I think an explanation of the use of ICM is outside of the scope of this thread, but we can say that there is a reason why all the top tourney players incorporate ICM theory... For in depth discussion I'd recommend reading Colin Moshman's SNG book if this is a topic anybody would like to explore in greater detail.


Only PokerTracker has a built in tournament detection system that attempts to fill in the missing data that is not provided in a tournament hand history or summary, there are no industry standards for reporting tournament histories, every poker site performs this job differently - and unfortunately many leave out the data completely. This missing data may include the tournament structure, type, entry fee, or any other fundamental component needed for post-game analysis - included if the tournament was a SNG or not.

Because there are so many tournament types available, creating the nomenclature for defining each tournament type was rather complicated. For example SNGs come in many flavors, including multiple table sit n gos such as PokerStars 180s therefore both multiple table and single table SNGs exist. Conversely it is possible to have a single table tournament that is not a sit n go - see how complicated this can get if the information about the tournament is not provided by the poker site?

If the tournament type is not included in the hand history (not all sites include summaries) the tournament detection system cannot determine if you are playing a SNG or a normal tournament. Our solution to this complicated situation in PokerTracker 3 & 4 is to assign each tournament a type with the options of STT or MTT (single table or multi-table), along with a series of flags such as SNG, DON, Bounty, Shootout, etc. The Flag is what determines if a tournament type is a SNG or not, in PT3 the way you can filter for a tournament Flag is by using the Global Filters, in PT4 it is much quicker thanks to the addition of QuickFilters in the left hand frame.

Long story short, we do the best we can with the limited tools given to us by the online poker sites. The naming schema is available in the Edit Tourney Results window in PT3 & 4. PT doesn’t have the ability to determine if a tournament is a SNG in some situations that are outside of our control due to flaws in the hand history formats. Sorry we cannot any better, we are at the mercy of the data available to us. If you would like to see how the quickfilters list tournament options in PT4, I recommend looking at the PokerTracker 4 feature preview video #3 - the quickfilters are in the background in many shots.

Luckily nobody will be forced to switch to PT4, it's optional ;-) If it is not your cup of tea then that's fine, we are not trying to sell PT4 in this thread; the thread exists to get guidance from the community on features we have implemented to complete development and to help answer questions. We have created PT4 to appeal to the widest assortment of players possible; we accept that it is impossible to fit everyone's needs. What may be a critical missing feature for one person might be of lower priority to the majority of our users, it’s a tradeoff that we are willing to accept in order to develop software that meets the widest needs of players.


hope this helps!

Here are some comments about PT3 that I hope will be improved in PT4:

We need much more responsive UI:
- Hud changes should be instant, if not possible:
make a loading text show up, or populate hud field by field so we can see something happening, instead of freeze like behavior

- resizing window doesn't refresh content, how could that ever got out of PT3 beta is mind blowing. For example graph on Graphs tab, only way to resize it is to click Hide/Show configuration button on the right, but its not handy because buttons are covered by edge if window is resized! IT should either be stickied to right side or top, or have graph resize on fly. Same goes for all other tabs.

- Colors of background in tables are too white, I cant tell when things are selected. If I select a Date/Hand/Session, I want to see it selected.

- Having 5 different tabs that show winnings is not really awesome.
For example Session and winnings could be in same tab if sessions had option for days/months. Would be better with 1 tab for this and then 5 different views to show different things.
(I noticed this was improved in PT4 video)

- Then there is details tab, which is something from PT2, but it's not really useful, looks like a wall of text.

- PT3 Summary tab - clicking on a player does nothing, I would like to see:
- option to see all his hands
- ability to add note

- Not just on summary tab, things should be clickable and provide a nice feedback in a form of highlight/border when you choose something. (make all those colors customizable would be a huge plus in my book)

I switched over to HEM after my trial ran out originally, but these were the things that annoyed me the most. I will try to write down more things if it's of any help.

This is a concept that has been on our radar, the question remains if we can find a way to execute it and the demand from the users exists vs. demand for a different need. The greatest challenge of course is the sample size, a tremendous sample would be required vs. one specific opponent because we cannot determine the range of hands the opponent is folding in this spot in relation to the actual distribution of cards - however we may someday be able to create a model that simulates the range with some degree of accuracy with enough computing power. We will keep this idea in mind as we develop in the future; this is the type of work we foresee in the big picture for future development of PT - and requires far greater minimum computing requirements than most of our current users may have.
As you probably already know, you can create notes for either players or hands in PT4 using our free-form interface. The notes can be auto-populated using the NoteTracker tools including real ranges of known hands; however we don’t have a method of populating ICM calculated results or assigned ranges at this time. Once again it is a good idea that you proposed, it's something we will keep an eye on as we proceed in development.
We intend to add the ability to enter in a specific hand for analysis, but this addition may not make it to the initial release - it’s a decision that will be made based on the amount of time and development resources we have available before the launch. Not to worry though, it will be added in PT4 eventually. I will note your Excel request to the developers, I don’t know the answer to this one.
At this time it is invented, but we have discussed alternate ways to populate the ICM quiz. Once again, bigger picture for PT4, it is not expected to be included at the time of initial release but we are always adding new features as time allows so over time this might become a priority pending user requests.
Request noted!
It's in there - except we will no longer be using the term EV, because the stat does not meet the true definition of the term Expected Value. More on our new terminology soon…
Great questions & requests, questions of this caliber help shape our vision for PokerTracker 4. We couldn't do our jobs without questions like these, thanks!

I'm afraid that we aren't taking in comments for PT4 development based on past PT3 experiences at this time, it would be best if you adjust your comments to reflect the three videos we have released so far. Is that possible? I think you will find that many of your comments were already addressed, I expect you will be happy with what you find in the videos if these were your only issues.

The one thing I can add from your post is that HUD performance is based on three factors - the size of your database, the speed of your computer (processor, hard drive, and memory allotted to PostgreSQL), and the inclusion of custom stats (an abundance of custom stats might affect performance, but this also depends on many factors that are beyond the scope of this post). The new Vector HUD engine has some great performance boosts, people used to PT3 will be really impressed with how far we have come, and we also predict that players switching from HEM should be blown away by the differences -our HUD plan has been to remove as much of the visual chaos as possible in PT4. We do a lot of load balancing behind the scenes to assure your in-game performance is as good as possible, our #1 goal is to avoid interfering with your in-game experience while enhancing your decision process. For example in PT4 we populate the HUD popups after a very slight delay when each player is first opened, this is to help balance performance and to assure that on-table HUD performance for massive multitablers is not affected. This slight delay is too short to interfere with your game but long enough to allow us to get a performance boost from the PostgreSQL server.

PS: We implement these performance tweaks across platforms, we are developing for Windows and OS X at the same time - nobody else does this; only PokerTracker. I think this speaks volumes about our development team, once the PT4 beta is released you should give it a try to see for yourself - in the end only you can decide - we of course hope you like it though! I think you will find that we aim to make the use of PT4 as simple and intuitive as possible, while never removing the power underneath.

Also add cooler EV graphs to some standard cooler spots. Like set vs set, AA vs KK, AA vs QQ, AA vs AK, KK vs QQ, KK vs AK, flush vs flush, top2 vs set, flopped trips vs boat etc..

Add all-in EV + street EV + cooler EV and it would be closer to TRUE EV.

I don't think this has already been asked so: will there be an automatic leakfinder? Some of us are a wee bit lazy and don't do 1 hour session reviews with all kinds of filters so it would be helpful to have an automatic leakfinder: something that - on a button click - analyses heros hands based on a certain filter and points out the obvious leaks (folds to often in 3way pots, folds to much to 3bets, folds even though potodds dictate a call etc.). How about it?

Yes, there will be.

Hey, will there be an option in PT4 to organize the data you get on players in tournaments, by blind-intervals? In PT3 I only see standard "life time" stats (can organize by X last hands only), and "Stats from current tournament blind level only". It would be really awesome if I can organize the stats in "Blind-Groups" .. eg. Pokerstars SNG: Level 1 to 3, Level 4 to 6, Level 7 to 25, it will refresh the stats as the new blind level of w/e I set it to, hits.

I'm afraid that is outside the scope of PokerTracker 4, but we do include many reports which visually display the luck component of card distribution, such us the luck bell curve graph. You can also do your own analysis using our built in filters and custom reports to do hand vs hand luck analysis.

Unfortunately your recommendation would not bring the results closer to True EV. It is our policy with PT4 to remain true to the real mathematical definition of Expected Value - no smoke and mirrors, just the facts!

This type of report will not be shipped with PokerTracker, however we designed our custom reports in PT4 to be fairly simple to make on your own. You can even create this report PT3 although you might need a little bit of help from the PokerTracker community since it is more complex. A vast community of custom reports will be made available in PT4 when we ship to help keep track of great customizations such as this which appeal to some - but not all - of our users.

Only PokerTracker ships with such a vast array of custom reporting tools, and in PT4 creating these reports is easier than ever before. If you haven't seen our feature preview video yet which covers the creation of custom reports, I highly recommend you check it out - I think you will like what we have to offer, reporting is only limited by your imagination.

@ PokerTracker. Pls check pm.

Got it... will respond when we get a free moment. thnx for the notice.

a good SSD, Windows 7 (better SSD support than previous OSes) and 8GB of RAM ==> ZOOM even with a 3 year old system (thinkpad T61p).

for PT3 folks -- please notice that the DB is on a SSD and do not offer pointless DB housekeeping tasks.

Please automate bug reporting.

I should be able to restart PT3 after a crash, select a menu item called "file bug report" (or some such) and PT3 will gather all the boiler plate info about my system automatically. I could also use the same menu item before a crash when something is currently not working.

I'm thinking "bug reporting wizard" here that automates bug reporting drudgery. You already have the replayer video thing. Could I make a "bug reporting video" where I explain what is not currently working (microphone and pointing with the mouse)?

Good accurate bug reports from everyone who experiences the particular bug are valuable. If you make doing this easier folks will get you the info you need more quickly.

EDIT: I see a lot of things I suggested in the past are PT4 features ... hopefully the whole custom stats UI is getting a massive overhaul. I should be able to package up a HUD + custom stats and send it to a friend with click of a button. Just give us a .zip file at the click of a button and give me the ability to import this entire zip file at the click of a button (or drag and drop).

Just make a way to see my entire hud for that session for specific opponent easily. Also some kinda pop-up configuration for extreme dummies (me) would be nice

Automated crash reporting will be included - I'm not sure how far down the road of your other suggestions it will be practical to go, but I agree that a "Send Logs" option would be useful and I hope that at least that will be included as well.


Both of these will be included!

Right now in PT3, I'm running a report on villains. I would love to be able to select a villain name in the report and then popup my HUD on villain.

The idea here is I know my HUD stats very well (Kraada's adv HUD customized). I see things in reports and then wonder what some other HUD stats are for this villain. I don't want to put my gazillion HUD stats in each report I run, I just want to bring up HUD stats for villain quickly and easily (e.g. right click and select a menu item).

Whether you just pop up villains HUD all by itself or open the replayer (with HUD) to villains most recently played hand I don't really care.

Currently I go through the tedious task of

• finding villain in the "player" list, selecting that player
• opening up the most recent hand from the session list
• wait for HUD stats to popup on the replayer (this takes a while)
• view villains HUD stats.
• sometimes the first session doesn't have the number of players I want (e.g. he is playing HU and I want to see his FR stats)

EDIT: right click on villain name > menu with "view villain HUD" > sub menu with "player ranges" (one entry for each HUD player range I use).

+1

The best way to accomplish your goal is to create a custom report with all the relevant stats on the player, the "My Reports" system is very very fast and updates on the fly as new stats are added, this would be the fastest way to get nearly instantaneous results. I'll make a note to make sure we create a custom report which can be downloaded that feature all the key stats you need as a foundation to address your concern, we should have you covered - complete with the table player counts you asked about! PokerTracker 4 no longer has a player list like the one found in PT3, instead we use a player selector as shown in Video Preview #1 - hence accomplishing this task will be much easier.

Although you propose a good idea, the use of the HUD as described will not be included in PT4 due to the way HUD resources need to be allocated (live games are the priority for obvious reasons) but that is ok since the custom report solution is a better option once you get used to the changes. On a related note, Kradda has been working on a new HUD design with our team & external player consultants which will blow you away - it is hands down the best popup design we have ever seen featuring new stats which match the way players think. We cannot disclose the design yet, but I can assure you it will change the way you think about the use of a HUD in-game.

OK. Kraada rocks as a HUD designer!

FYI: the reason I'm asking for HUD popup in reports is because I'm very practiced and looking at these stats together (I do it each time I play). I play a lot and study very little. My brain is trained to use the HUD.

I realize from your post that you are not going to to this soon but please give it serious consideration for the long term.

I also look forward to a greatly improved HUD editor. (Again, not necessarily in the first release) A WYSIWYG drag and drop interface would be welcome, as would my earlier suggestion (kraada will remember) for a standardized "color to value" range pallete that will make colorizing other stats easier.

• the user defines a range of values to color palette (e.g. as appears in the kraada adavanced HUD). Obviously you ship some predefined range/palettes.
• the user can then say "colorize stat A using stat B and palette C".
• any number of "range to color" palettes can be defined.

I look forward to trying the beta ASAP. Please (if you have not already) give thought as to how I can easily import hands into both PT3 and PT4 during this period. E.g. can I point each at the others "i'm done with importing this file" directory so they both can slurp of the same HH going forward.

Its a team effort, but he has a very heavy hand in this matter.

Part of the issue is computer resources, our software must work flawlessly on the widest range of computer setups, for example we have people still using Windows XP on 5 year old hardware with the minimum amounts of ram 4 tabling - all withing a virtual machine while using Linux... insane, but those customers exist and they are just as important to us as the customers with high end computers. As people advance their computing power, it becomes easier and easier to add cutting edge functionality. As we creating the spec for PT4 the developers would weigh out every concept proposed to us, the ones that made the cut were the ones which were most in demand without compromising performance. In due time you might see your proposal integrated, you never know!


Take a look at our press release, a full drag & drop HUD design interface is included, along with an automated positional popup editor for those who want to get fast results. PT4 is moving away from the positional design defaults we had in PT3 because the HUD design has advanced so far that this is no longer the best method - but we maintain that as a possibility by including legacy HUD designs as well.

Please contact Kradda with your proposed color scheme vision, we will take a look at it.

You can already do this with a small amount of modification with PT2 & PT3, or PT3 and any other tracking application, that wont change with PT4... you have the freedom to use more than one application at the same time as long as your import workflow doesn't interfere with the process.

Thanks for the good words!

I hear you.

Please keep the essential requirements in mind: I want to be able to bring up villain stats for viewing in the HUD format. If you have different, less resource intensive, code the reads a HUD description and presents the data to the user in the same (or similar) layout that would suffice. This presentation does not have the same requirements a HUD has (constant updates, possible screen scraping).

I had watched all the videos but not yet viewed the press release (PDF) . Reading it was informative.

What does "moving away from positional design" mean? Will VPIP not occupy the same position in my HUD from hand to hand (e.g. left most stat of the first row of my preflop stat window)? Feel free to ignore this question if waiting for the video that demos the HUD editor is the best way to explain.

I look forward to a video demonstrating the new UI.