One point : There's a big difference between 22 on a flop of 2AA and 22 on a board of AAA.

Yes this is already addressed in all versions of the app with the "make hand" stats vs. "hit hand" stats feature. In the iPhone version set Deal-To=Flop and bring up the Stats view. The "Stats" button changes to a "Hit" or "Make" toggle button.

For 22 I'm seeing:
* Make a full house on the flop: 0.96%.
* Hit a full house on the flop: 0.71%.
(There's always a small error due to Monte Carlo sim.)

Re. adding the "total hit" stat (checkmark'ed stats) feature to the iPhone/iPad versions, I'm going to make a feature differentiation call here and decide no. For one thing there isn't much room on the iPhone screen/views. And people that buy the Mac version are paying a few times more so they should get a more powerful program : ). But all 3 versions have the same core features. Thanks for looking closely at the app and stats.

Thanks for your detailed reply - much appreciated.

I'm sorry to go on about the results so much but I can't use the app if I dont have full faith in the results :

If you have A9o, the chances of missing the flop completely is

44/50 x 43/49 x 42/48 = .68

Yours shows .538

And shouldnt the high card hit/make figure differ - one would be lower when the flop pairs? What am I missing ?

By all means pls. do keep going on re. the results - imo just a single knowledgable, interested customer is worth more than a dozen possibly disinterested testers I can ever hire : ). But a good tester is worth his weight in gold.

I've added pics below for your A9o example, the "hit hand" stats and the "make hand" stats.

I don't see a problem here and think this is just a matter of how to interpret the stats. Yes the app shows 54% but this is for "High Card". This doesn't mean your "the chances of missing the flop completely" because if the flop is 223, then A9o has missed this flop completely but A9o has made OnePair here, not HighCard, so this won't be counted in the HighCard stat.

To get to your "the chances of missing the flop completely" using the app's set of stats, we would need to take the 54% and add to it the cases where the flop *alone* makes a pair, or 3OfAKind, etc. From the pics, A9o makes OnePair 40.3% of the time, but hits OnePair 28.9% of the time, so subtracting these, the flop alone makes a pair 11.4% of the time. Adding 54% and 11.4% gives 65.4%, which is taking us closer to your 68% (I haven't added in the diff for 3OfAKind).

We still won't get all the way to 68% by adding in these diffs because of the meaning of the "hit OnePair" stat, e.g. on a flop of 922, A9o gets credit for hitting OnePair but has made TwoPair, so there's some overlapping of stats going on here. But I think this clears up the main 68% vs. 54% discrepancy.

Re. "And shouldnt the high card hit/make figure differ" -
The rationale/meaning of the "hit hand" feature is that a stat's "hit hand" prob. would always be lower than its "make hand" prob. because hitting a particular hand is a stronger condition than making the hand. If the board pairs, we're automatically out of the HighCard stat and are into OnePair or better, so the HighCard stat wouldn't be affected. The OnePair stat is affected however, and we can use the "hit" vs. "make" difference as above. So I prefer not changing the HighCard stat and staying with the current 4 bold-blue stats in the pics as the "hit hand" stats.

Do let me know of course if anything doesn't sound like the best way to go. I'm trying to balance adding in new good but maybe marginally-useful features vs. reaching a stability point and moving on to new work. Thanks.

A9o, Deal-To-Flop, Hit Hand Stats:


A9o, Deal-To-Flop, Make Hand Stats:

I don't want to over-criticise the app because I'm very impressed and I know I've only touched the surface of it's capabilities.

But the feature that I'd be most interested in is how hands connect to the flop (I'm a tourney donk obv)

Let's say someone opens and I'm in the big blind, to use my example of above with A9o ( and I consider a good idea to flat the raise )

I'd like to see :

Flop A high :68%
flop an ace or a nine w%
Flop an ace and a nine x%
Flop trips y%. (aaa or 999)
Flop a boat z%

And a hand like 76s would have flop/straight possibilities too obv

The first pic above, the one with the blue hit stats turned on, calculates your example. The only difference is the 68% vs. 54% for HighCard, but as I explained I don't want to change HighCard to be a 5th hit stat that gives the larger number 68% because this deviates from the stronger vs. weaker meaning of hit stat in the other hit stats.

You can just add up the "positive" hit stats 28.9 + 1.97 + etc. to get the total positive hit (the Mac version has the stats checkboxes feature to make this easy), and then subtract from 100 to get the flop miss prob. But even without the checkboxes feature I don't think it's too hard to add up 4 or 5 numbers mentally and subtract from 100 (I don't need to get it right down to two decimal places, the nearest percent would be good enough for me).

Also to better model your tourney situation, I'd enter in a hand range for Player 2 (Villain) instead of leaving it random as I did in the pic, because the range of hands Villain holds affects the odds of what your hand can flop. E.g. if Villain holds high cards a large %age of the time then your AK's chances of hitting a pair on the flop goes down.

I'm all for improving the app and have done so for 2 years, but am preferring only the high bang for the buck new features.

Is Pokercruncher an equivalent/alternative to Flopzilla?

I mean, does it somewhat have the same (main)functionality?

(Disclosure: I'm the author of PokerCruncher.)
You should probably take the advice of people who have both programs for a totally unbiased opinion, but, imo:

PokerCruncher is more general than Flopzilla because PokerCruncher is 10-player hand range equity calculation + flop texture analysis, and Flopzilla is 1-player flop texture analysis, but I'd say Flopzilla does a more complete job at the flop texture analysis part.

The way I see it, PokerCruncher (esp. the Mac version) is PokerStove + most of Flopzilla. But again, I may be biased without even knowing it : ).

somethings are easier in flopzilla but r999's summary above is pretty accurate.

I only have cruncher on my iPhone, not iPad, so I can't comment iPad functionality.

If I'm sitting at home and I want to see how a flop hits a range, I use zilla.

Zilla will allow to to select villain's xxx criteria (continuation, raise, et cetera) and then it will add up the equity of all the situations that met the criteria. I don't think (iPhone) cruncher does that. Cruncher shows a range breakdown but doesn't do the "summing of breakdown that meet your specified criteria"

Zilla does less than cruncher (which has stove functionality) so its UI can be more targeted to the problem it does address.

Hi rj. Thanks for your replies above.

So I'm holding A9o....

Regarding the two pair stat of 1.97% in your top graphic shown above, this stat includes flops of A92 and also flops of AKK.

Can I separate them out as the 1.97% figure is meaningless for my needs.

Why do you say that the 1.97% HitTwoPair stat includes the flop=AKK case?, any evidence of this?

It does not. See the below pic; for an AKK flop the HitTwoPair stat is 0.0% (would be 100% if this case was counted as a hit).

The exact HitTwoPair stat for a non-pair hand is 2.02% (which I found by google search). The app does converge on 2.02% as you run more Monte Carlo sim trials (e.g. with the "Infinite" setting). This is more easily seen in the Mac version since it runs much faster.

Also note that the app gives A9o credit for hitting OnePair here, even though A9o makes TwoPair on this flop. I thought this is the best way to count the hit since A9o has hit exactly one of its cards.

Yes, sorry

Nice hand

apologies if cruncher already does this ... it would be nice if repeated "calculate" clicks (without changing any parameters) simply continued the previous monte-carlo run (adding to the total number of trials) rather than running a new trial.

EDIT: I just tried it and repeated "calculate" clicks (without any changes to the calculation config -- no changes to players ranges or the board) reset the number of trials.

While I understand why you might do this, I think it is bad UI. E.g. if the board makes a straight that uses none of my hold cards, I have a straight, not high card. Good UI says you should always count/name the hand the same way. If we call it "2 pair" at showdown, you should call it 2 pair in cruncher.

similarly, if the the turn is dealt and the board is KK88 and I hold A9o, then I have 2 pair (ace kicker) not high card.

I realize you are trying to distinguish between the case shown and the case when a player makes 2 pair using both hole cards but the confusion caused by non-standard hand naming is not worth it (IMO).

Re. repeated "Calculate" clicks ...
If you set the "Number of Sim Trials" setting in the Menu to "Infinite" then we get your desired behavior, so I prefer not making any changes for this. You're given the option of starting a new calculation or continuing the previous one. This choice is also given currently if you stop a calculation in the middle.

Re. the non-standard HitOnePair stat issue ...
I see the point now and agree, and will make this change in an update. It's more important to be consistent as you say than try to give the non-pair hand some extra OnePair "credit" for hitting a card. This consistency issue is the same reasoning I had given mojon a few posts earlier when he wanted to change the meaning of the "hit HighCard" stat. I didn't remember then that I had committed this same inconsistency here.

Note that for the default "make hand" stats, this issue isn't there, the standard hand definitions are used. This issue is there for the 4 (blue) "hit hand" stats, actually just the HitOnePair one, where I decided to give this extra OnePair credit for hitting a card.

After this change, A9o on a AKK flop won't get any credit for hitting OnePair or hitting TwoPair, but I agree it's the consistent thing to do. There's another stat, HitBoard'sTopCard (in the second set of Deal-To-Flop stats), that gives credit for this case though (and will continue to do so after this change).

Thanks funkyj and mojon for asking the right questions on the hit stats and bringing this up.

Thanks for mentioning 2+2 on the update. Maybe keep mentioning 2+2 and more people will come to the thread.

+1 for Omaha. Would be happy if you start with something really basic. Have a look at the other Omaha odds applications on the market, there isn't a whole lot.

Hi rj999,
Thank you for the apps. I'm new to poker and I'm still trying to figure how to use them but I'm pretty confident they will help once I figure them out.

I’ve got the Odds Teacher app and the Odds Quizzer app. I’m learning the different scenarios in Odds Teacher and understanding the math behind them. I’m pretty good with all of the pre-flop scenarios.

When I go to the Odds Quizzer app and try the pre-flop scenarios I apply to math used in the Odds Teacher app. When I submit my answer I turn out to be wrong. I have no idea how the answers in the Odds Quizzer app are reached. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks for getting the apps jdm. The answers in OddsQuizzer are from an odds calculator e.g. PokerCruncher; this is the only way to get the exact answer. OddsTeacher gives general methods you can use in real time in your head to come up with good equity estimates (look at your outs, look at villain's counter-outs, combine the two), but the method doesn't give the exact answer, only a good estimate (correct to within a few %). Because there are usually runner runner outs etc. there's no way to compute the exact answer in your head on the fly down to say 0.1% accuracy. I think in practice there's no need to anyway; it's usually good enough to be within a few %age's ballpark. And if you need the exact answer for later analysis, use a hand range equity calculator.

Can you give a specific example of one of OddsQuizzer's scenarios where your answer is way off using OddsTeacher's method?

Edit: Also, OddsQuizzer has a Menu-->OddsTutorial that has a section (D) on common pre-flop matchups like Pair vs. LowerPair (80/20) etc. I think knowing these dozen or so matchups cold helps a lot, rather than having to count outs and estimate again and again.

I havent had a chance to read the whole thread yet (sorry), but why should I purchase this app instead of downloading pokerstove for free?

NB. I already have flopzilla (well, I dont but for arguments sake we'll say I do). What does pokercruncher do that I cant get elsewhere?

Also, how much is it at the moment?

(Disclosure: I'm the author of PokerCruncher)

Re. "I havent had a chance to read the whole thread yet (sorry), but why should I purchase this app instead of downloading pokerstove for free?":

The whole thread may be too long to read, but how about just post #1, which has been changed to just 1 line by the sysadmin's, which says this app is for iPhone, iPod touch, and iPad (there's also a Mac version). Stove and Zilla are Windows programs.

Re. "What does pokercruncher do that I cant get elsewhere?":

Re. PokerStove - PokerCruncher can do everything Stove can do (fully general 10 player hand ranges equity calculation), and more:
* Extensive built-in hand ranges
* Range equity breakdown heat maps and hand combos stats
* Deal-To-Flop and flop texture analysis
* Many additional stats: hand histograms, flop hit stats, odds for flopping draws and combination draws
* Some other small goodies features like %age's and n:1 odds, generation of random player/board cards, etc.

Re. FlopZilla - See a post by funkyj on 06/24/11 that also talked about these two programs, but imo: Zilla is just for 1-player flop texture analysis (not equity calculation), but does a more complete job at this than Cruncher. Cruncher puts together most of Stove and Zilla and has some other features as well (like range equity breakdown heat maps). This paragraph however is slightly more "imo" than the previous.

For latest purchase prices, see:
http://www.pokercruncher.com/ipPurchase.html

I use the app and really love it. However, one suggestion:

Could you please add some built in % ranges? Eg. a standard 5%, 7%, 10%, 12%, etc... pre flop raise range. Maybe similar with calling and 3bet ranges. I know there are different possible ranges for a given % but I am only interested in approximations, so any reasonable range should do. I want to calculate my equity vs a specific pre-flop range and it is really annoying to have to input this every time.

This should be really easy for you implement and would add a lot of value. Or as an even better alternative let users save their custom ranges that they can use over and over again.

Do you think you could implement something like this in one of your future updates?

Thanks, good to hear you like the app. The app can already save/load custom hand ranges. In the hand range editor screen do Menu --> SaveHandRangeAs..., and there's a LoadHandRange... command here. You can save up to 100 hand ranges and can name them e.g. "Top 10%". This save/load feature is in all versions of the app, iPhone, iPad, and Mac.

Fantastic app!!
Can't stop playing with it......

Finally, there's an Android version now, on Android Market: link.

Have started a new thread for the Android version.

The Android version is as powerful (and also my goal, as beautiful hopefully), as the iOS versions.

This is my first Android app so I'm keeping my fingers crossed a bit that everything goes well on the many Android phone models out there, but of course I'll be here to support.

Looks like Pokerstove might be dead now.. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32...stove-1146805/ PC version?

For what it's worth, I'd have snap-bought it if PokerCruncher supported Omaha (and Omaha hi/lo).

I guess I'll just keep using http://www.ProPokerTools.com until someone does it.