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Old 10-15-2018, 08:45 AM   #4526
netstorm
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Quote:
Originally Posted by netstorm View Post
Is there a way in Pio where I assign 3 betsizings for flop (eg. 33% / 50% / 70% ) and have Pio select the best 2 betsizing and only use those two sizings? I wouldnt mind if the sim became less accurate then.
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Old 10-15-2018, 11:36 AM   #4527
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

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netstorm
I've answered your question here:
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...postcount=4520
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Old 10-15-2018, 12:59 PM   #4528
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Hi all. I am planning a new build for piosolver. Here is the parts list: https://pcpartpicker.com/user/awes1/saved/#view=w8bRJx
Pls comment on any major issues you see. My questions: 1: any success or failure with the corsair vengeance lpx 3200's? Is CAS 16 sub-optimal? 2) is there enough of a performance increase to justify buying the 2990wx? At the moment I have piopro but would obviously upgrade to edge if i got the 2990wx. 3) any luck with g.skill ram as well? if so, which one and what mobo are you using? thanks.
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Old 10-15-2018, 05:39 PM   #4529
RyanK
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Hi everyone,
I pucharsed the licence last year and i recently change my computer forgetting to save the software.
How can i download it again ? The link to download it send via email when i made the purchased is no longer working

Would appreciate your help

thanks
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Old 10-16-2018, 01:17 AM   #4530
Solidthought
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

When we node lock for a river card am I right in assuming we are node locking a small fraction of all rivers (eg: 1/46 rivers).

This seems quite obvious when I say it out loud but the reason I ask is just in case there is way to node lock strategies for all rivers. For example, can we always have OOP donk jam river with busted draws no matter the river?

Or is the only way to do this, to select all rivers where draws miss and node lock missed draws?

Again I am curious because I feel that when river equilibrium changes, EARLIER parts of the game tree will experience change. When I have tested this myself I have only locked one river card and noticed a small yet non-significant change in turn frequencies. This confused me as I was convinced turn strategy should change.

However, if we went and manually changed river equilibrium for every single river card we would see drastic changes in turn strategy yes?

Cliffs:
Can we somehow nodelock multiple rivers at once?
Does strategy change affect earlier portions of the game tree?

Many thanks and sorry if this has been asked before.
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Old 10-16-2018, 03:13 AM   #4531
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Quote:
Pls comment on any major issues you see. My questions: 1: any success or failure with the corsair vengeance lpx 3200's? Is CAS 16 sub-optimal? 2) is there enough of a performance increase to justify buying the 2990wx? At the moment I have piopro but would obviously upgrade to edge if i got the 2990wx. 3) any luck with g.skill ram as well? if so, which one and what mobo are you using? thanks.
I am not a hardware expert. It's a good idea to ask in #hardware channel on our Discord. Looking at posted configs there is a good idea as well (there are quite a few).

Quote:
I pucharsed the licence last year and i recently change my computer forgetting to save the software.
How can i download it again ? The link to download it send via email when i made the purchased is no longer working
The link to the installer/updater is here:
https://www.piosolver.com/blogs/news...elease-1-10-19 (bottom of the post)

You will likely need a key reset as well. Please email us at support@piosolver.com including your key and we will reset it for you.

Quote:
When we node lock for a river card am I right in assuming we are node locking a small fraction of all rivers (eg: 1/46 rivers).
Yes (it should be 1/48 though).

Quote:
This seems quite obvious when I say it out loud but the reason I ask is just in case there is way to node lock strategies for all rivers. For example, can we always have OOP donk jam river with busted draws no matter the river?
There is no way to do that automatically yet.

Quote:
Again I am curious because I feel that when river equilibrium changes, EARLIER parts of the game tree will experience change. When I have tested this myself I have only locked one river card and noticed a small yet non-significant change in turn frequencies. This confused me as I was convinced turn strategy should change.
Unfortunately to see significant changes on earlier streets you would need to lock all (or at least significant %) of rivers. This is not practical to do right now although it is theoretically possible.

Quote:
Can we somehow nodelock multiple rivers at once?
Does strategy change affect earlier portions of the game tree?
It's planned for the future but it's a big feature and will have to wait.
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:58 AM   #4532
Vitamin
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

I want to purchase pio basic using skrill, is this a possibility?
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Old 10-17-2018, 01:35 AM   #4533
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Quote:
Originally Posted by punter11235 View Post

Unfortunately to see significant changes on earlier streets you would need to lock all (or at least significant %) of rivers. This is not practical to do right now although it is theoretically possible.
Thanks a lot for your answers That helps a lot

Just to clarify though, if we say node locked all rivers that paired the board so 12 rivers ( i think) and forced one player do exceptional things on those rivers, we would expect strategy changes in previous streets?

I understand that node locking multiple rivers is tedious and takes time, but I'm just asking if the functionality is currently in place for us to potentially see these changes IF we put the time in.

Thanks again
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Old 10-17-2018, 03:19 AM   #4534
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Quote:
I want to purchase pio basic using skrill, is this a possibility?
Right now we can't accept Skrill.

Quote:
Just to clarify though, if we say node locked all rivers that paired the board so 12 rivers ( i think) and forced one player do exceptional things on those rivers, we would expect strategy changes in previous streets?
It's hard to say. There are 48 rivers and you want to lock 1/4. If you lock things wild enough on those rivers then maybe the strategy change on the flop/turn is going to be significant.

Quote:
I understand that node locking multiple rivers is tedious and takes time, but I'm just asking if the functionality is currently in place for us to potentially see these changes IF we put the time in.
Yes, it will work if you do that either automatically or using a 3rd party program (I am not aware of any existing but it's possible to make it using our text API although maybe it's better to wait for us to implement the functionality).
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Old 10-17-2018, 09:29 AM   #4535
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

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Originally Posted by punter11235 View Post
woops sorry, I read over that one, my bad. Thanks!
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Old 10-18-2018, 06:37 AM   #4536
rpqlej
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Category top_pair_tp does not exists. I thought it could be top pair top kicker, but it isnt.
Is a bug?or just a category that you dont need but dont have deleted it??
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:26 AM   #4537
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

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Category top_pair_tp does not exists. I thought it could be top pair top kicker, but it isnt.
Is a bug?or just a category that you dont need but dont have deleted it??
I am not sure what the question is. Does it show in the program? Can you make a screenshot and explain what's wrong?
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Old 10-18-2018, 04:17 PM   #4538
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Thanks Punter. Really appreciate the rapid feedback.
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Old 10-18-2018, 04:58 PM   #4539
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

After sending this question by mail:

"Hello,

I'm having results on simulations that I don't understand. These results are only when I include rake (5% capped to 110 chips which is the .fr rake in micro).

To illustrate those results here is a screenshot where on a 7s2s2d board SB vs BB, I compare OOP EV on two differents strategies, the first one (on the left) is a mixed one where we can cbet 1/3 pot or 3/4 , the other one where we check whole range:

https://gyazo.com/66496dfbcbe3b46db4b0860bcee4bcb4

why , if the EV of checking whole range is higher, Pio says to check only 42.37% when given the choice of multiple sizings? Shouldn't it just say to check whole range?

So is this a bug or there is something I don't understand when including rake? (when not including it obviously EV of checking whole range is smaller)

Thank you in advance for you answer."

I received this answer:
Quote:
Once there is rake there is no guarantee that there is one solution, there might be multiple ones with various EVs. This is how math is (in a non-zero sum game there might be many equilibria with different solutions). If you want to compare options and have any guarantees you need to work without rake.
I have to confess I don't really understand the answer but does it mean that I can't include rake when trying to compare strategies ?
Is the result I get here, where the "check whole range" strategy has higher EV than a mixed one, relevant or not?
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Old 10-19-2018, 02:56 AM   #4540
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

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I have to confess I don't really understand the answer but does it mean that I can't include rake when trying to compare strategies ?
Yes. The reason is that if the game is not zero-sum (that is EVs of all players doesn't add up to the initial pot which is the case with rake as some money disappears in every pot) there might be more than one solution. Those solutions might have completely different EVs for both players. Simplifying it means that optimal play doesn't exist in games which are not zero-sum (rake, ICM). The reason we include an option to calculate results with both rake and ICM is that the hope is that if those disturb the results only a bit (small rake or relatively flat ICM structure) no matter what solution the solver finds it's still going to be useful and all the solutions are close enough to each other in overall EV. Unfortunately this is not guaranteed and there is nothing we can do about it as that's just math of it.

Quote:
Is the result I get here, where the "check whole range" strategy has higher EV than a mixed one, relevant or not?
It's not relevant. It just means that having 3 options there is more than one equilibrium. It also doesn't mean it's better to check having 3 options because the opponent may play differently there as well and then checking would have lower EV.
It might be difficult to visualize when you hear about it for the first time so here is an example to ponder:

Game:
-blinds are 1/2
-stacks are 1000
-it's HU and we play push or fold.
-rake is 5$ if it's all-in, 0$ if it ends without showdown
-both players have AA only in range

Consider the following pairs of strategies:

1)OOP pushes 100%, IP folds 100% if pushed into
2)OOP folds 100%, IP calls 100% if pushed into

In case 1) can OOP improve? They can't because pushing wins the pot (+2$ from the blind) and folding is obviously -1$. Can IP improve? They can't because calling has EV of -2.5$ (997.5$ - 1000$) (pot 2000$ -5$ rake and eq is 50%) while folding has EV of -2$. As neither player can improve it's equilibrium by definition.

In case 2) can OOP improve? They can't because a push will get called so pushing has EV of -2.5$ while folding has EV of -1$. Can IP improve? They can't because they are never pushed into and if they stop calling in case of being pushed into then OOP might start pushing.

In case 1) OOP wins 2$ every hand and IP losses 2$ every hand (blinds). In case 2) OOP losses 1$ every hand and IP wins 1$ every hand even though both are equilibriums and in both cases there is nothing any player can do about it. Two solutions, two completely different payoffs for both players.

Now, this to lesser extent happens in thousands of hundred of thousands nodes in the tree, especially on the river. The player who pushes first or already is commited to calling a lot forces the other to be more passive or they both lose to rake. That's why there might be (and almost always is) more than one equilibrium in games which are not zero sum. This makes comparing trees like that unreliable. Even if you run the same tree you could in theory get a different solution every time you run it (this won't happen as the solver is somewhat deterministic but if we change the algorithm a bit or tune some parameters it's already possible).

This fact about non-zero sum games is the reason we haven't implemented rake and ICM for a long time - we thought it's not that useful to calculate equilibria with those. There was a lot of demand though so we reluctantly added it. You have to be careful using those, especially if the rake is big or ICM close to the bubble/final table as then results really aren't very reliable.

We recommend solving without rake and then making reasonable adjustments for rake (that is avoiding playing marginal EV hands for example).
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Old 10-19-2018, 04:16 AM   #4541
rpqlej
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

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Originally Posted by punter11235 View Post
I am not sure what the question is. Does it show in the program? Can you make a screenshot and explain what's wrong?
nothing king_high ace_high low_pair 3rd-pair 2nd-pair underpair top_pair top_pair_tp overpair two_pair trips set straight flush fullhouse top_fullhouse quads straight_flush
top_pair_tp is number 8 in list.

This is the output of command show_categories 3s 4s Td:
3 3 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 12 4 4 4 4 12 12 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 5 5 5 5 10 10 10 0 5 5 5 5 10 10 10 0 12 5 5 5 5 10 10 10 0 12 12 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 6 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 6 6 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 6 6 6 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 6 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 6 6 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 6 6 6 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 6 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 6 6 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 6 6 6 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 6 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 6 6 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 6 6 6 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 6 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 6 6 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 6 6 6 7 7 7 7 10 10 10 0 10 10 10 0 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 7 7 7 7 10 10 10 0 10 10 10 0 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 12 0 7 7 7 7 10 10 10 0 10 10 10 0 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 12 0 12 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 7 0 7 7 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 7 0 7 7 9 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 7 0 7 7 9 9 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 7 0 7 7 9 9 9 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 7 0 7 7 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 7 0 7 7 0 0 0 0 9 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 7 0 7 7 0 0 0 0 9 9 0 0 0 0 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 7 0 7 7 0 0 0 0 9 9 9 1 1 1 1 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 7 0 7 7 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 7 0 7 7 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 9 1 1 1 1 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 7 0 7 7 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 9 9 1 1 1 1 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 7 0 7 7 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 9 9 9 2 2 2 2 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 7 0 7 7 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 7 0 7 7 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 9 2 2 2 2 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 7 0 7 7 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 9 9 2 2 2 2 4 4 4 0 5 5 5 0 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 7 0 7 7 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 9 9 9

As you can see there is no hand with categoy 8 in the list. I have found no hand in any board with category 8 (top_pair_tp)
Could you tell me a hand which suits to that category?
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Old 10-19-2018, 04:41 AM   #4542
punter11235
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Quote:
nothing king_high ace_high low_pair 3rd-pair 2nd-pair underpair top_pair top_pair_tp overpair two_pair trips set straight flush fullhouse top_fullhouse quads straight_flush
top_pair_tp is number 8 in list.
Oh, you mean the text API. Yeah, there is top_pair_tp as I thought it's going to be useful so I left space for that. It's not used right now.
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Old 10-19-2018, 11:56 AM   #4543
Rezzir
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

I am using multi-flop aggregated reports to get a snapshot of my C-bet frequencies for spots.

CO v BTN the c-bet is only 18% on average. However when I node lock an individual flop, for IP to only raise decent hands and draws, the c-bet goes up by about 300% for that flop.
E.g. from 12% to 38% on T32.

Is there a way that I can apply the 'only raising a tighter range' to all flops so I can get a more accurate multi-flop aggregate report?
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Old 10-19-2018, 02:58 PM   #4544
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Random idea/request: Ability to see Runouts EV comparison (hotness) for specific combos not just whole ranges.
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Old 10-20-2018, 06:55 AM   #4545
punter11235
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Quote:
Is there a way that I can apply the 'only raising a tighter range' to all flops so I can get a more accurate multi-flop aggregate report?
There isn't a way to do that automatically. You would need to lock every flop separately.

Quote:
Random idea/request: Ability to see Runouts EV comparison (hotness) for specific combos not just whole ranges.
This s a very good idea. Right now this data can be obtained by generating an aggregation report but it would be nice to have it in graphical form as well. I am adding it to the to-do.
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Old 10-20-2018, 10:11 AM   #4546
urBlindsOrurLife
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Hello,

I cannot get the treBrowserContainerPanel Buttons info on commercial version 1.10.19 while I can on Free Version. Any help?

Thanks
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Old 10-20-2018, 03:14 PM   #4547
punter11235
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Quote:
I cannot get the treBrowserContainerPanel Buttons info on commercial version 1.10.19 while I can on Free Version. Any help?
Your mean from other programs? I will forward it to Kuba (PioViewer programmer). If it's about programming/accessing it from 3rd party software it would be the best if you could drop us an email to support@piosolver.com and we will continue there as it's quite technical and will not be of general interest.
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Old 10-20-2018, 07:54 PM   #4548
7betpafold
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Where to find the thread on hardware? Does Piosolver benefit from having a graphics card other than the integrated processor? or is it not necessary for the calculations?
ty in adv
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Old 10-21-2018, 07:00 AM   #4549
punter11235
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Quote:
Where to find the thread on hardware?
There isn't any but you can check a short answer in FAQ, here:
https://www.piosolver.com/pages/faq#hardware

as well as #hardware channel on our Discord.

Quote:
Does Piosolver benefit from having a graphics card other than the integrated processor?
It doesn't.
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Old 10-21-2018, 03:32 PM   #4550
racdbn
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Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Suppose that I solved from flop. Then for the turn spot I can press "ctrl+H" and get into the "hotness tab". Here when I press "OOP EV" I get 4x13 tab with OOP EV values. I'm going to copy values of such a tab to google sheets.

Is there an efficient way to do this? Or the only way is to type in those values one by one?
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