Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Commercial Software Discussion of commercial gambling-related / poker software & commercial graphics modifications

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-19-2018, 10:34 AM   #3676
7845
centurion
 
7845's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 121
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Hi, I want to test if 1 betsize for flop its better to 2betsizes on limp pot, i did my first tree with 1 size and then i did with 2 sizes and the results were the same EV and MES, so how can i know which strategy is better ?

Last edited by 7845; 02-19-2018 at 10:55 AM.
7845 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2018, 08:00 PM   #3677
punter11235
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: solving poker
Posts: 7,339
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Quote:
Hi, I want to test if 1 betsize for flop its better to 2betsizes on limp pot, i did my first tree with 1 size and then i did with 2 sizes and the results were the same EV and MES, so how can i know which strategy is better ?
It's very often the case that adding additional sizes don't change EV much or at all. In that case both strategies are as good. Usually you will get a (usually small) difference though if you add strategically important options (like turn or river overbets for example).
punter11235 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2018, 01:29 PM   #3678
kwijyboo
newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 17
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Quote:
Originally Posted by punter11235 View Post

I don't understand what you are asking but let me go through the difference between strategy and range:

1)Strategy is "what we do at given point", this means that strategies for all possible actions always sum up to 100%, for example all-in 70%, call 30%, fold 0%

2)Range is how often we have a given hand at given spot. For example if you have AA in your preflop range, then you 3bet 90%, then you 5bet 50% you have AA after 5bet 1 * 0.9 * 0.5 = 0.45 of the time.

Is there different kind of information you would like to see? Can you give an example of what this number would be?
I think I figured out but I would appreciate a confirmation: is it that the vertical axis is representing the % of time that a given combo reached that node (blue in my picture) and that the orizontal axis is giving the frequency with which we should take a given color-coded action? (red in my picture)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=13N...fB4bRMKGZxem2u
kwijyboo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2018, 12:16 AM   #3679
punter11235
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: solving poker
Posts: 7,339
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Quote:
I think I figured out but I would appreciate a confirmation: is it that the vertical axis is representing the % of time that a given combo reached that node (blue in my picture) and that the orizontal axis is giving the frequency with which we should take a given color-coded action? (red in my picture)
This is true for the main view. Let me go through some options of what you can display:

1)Strategy:
The numbers as well as graphical representation describe frequencies every action is taken with

2)EV:
Same but EV of a hand at this point is displayed

3)Range:
How often we have given hand in given spot. If a hand starts with 1.0 weight an then bets 50% of the time, it will be in range with weight 0.5

4)Strategy+EV:
The graphical representation (X axis) is for strategy and the numbers show EV

Independently of that there is a checkbox which says: "square size proportional to weight" this checkbox makes it so Y axis represents range, it's here:

https://gyazo.com/615bbfd8d8fc4694b07e4ac9c5c477a7

On your screenshot it looks like you are using preflop chart tools for postflop range which is not going to work (or something else didn't work properly as it gives an error about overselected combos, if you are using that for preflop ranges and getting errors, please report to support@piosolver.com)
Your description would be correct for the main 13x13 view though.
punter11235 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2018, 03:06 PM   #3680
Gerasis
centurion
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 147
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

I don't fully get how does MES work.
Lets say we build a tree. If both players play balanced, there should be no exploiting possible ?
If we lock some nodes and run again, shouldn't new result be equal with MES ?

I feel that I lack some theoretical understanding here ...
Gerasis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 12:42 AM   #3681
punter11235
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: solving poker
Posts: 7,339
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Quote:
Lets say we build a tree. If both players play balanced, there should be no exploiting possible ?
Yes, in perfect equilibrium EV of MES is the same as EV of the strategies. Sadly nailing exact equilibrium is not feasible (for anything but the simplest of trees) so there is some exploitability. This is defined by how much MES would win vs current strategy per hand.

Quote:
If we lock some nodes and run again, shouldn't new result be equal with MES ?
Yes, the way we calculate MES is to respect node locks (so max exploitive strategy has to follow strategies locked and can only use the max EV line in not locked nodes), again though: the solution is not perfect so there is some exploitability.
punter11235 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 01:01 AM   #3682
-Vex-
newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 31
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

What is the top end of hardware requirements? E.g. 6 bet sizes, 3 raise sizes, 6 max ranges, how much RAM is required and about how large will the tree be and what kind of processing speed would be needed for a timely computation? Thanks.
-Vex- is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 06:54 AM   #3683
Gerasis
centurion
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 147
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Also could you give any guidelines about running PIO on cloud ?

Which parameters would be best ? AWS, Google Cloud or monthly server (not $/h like AWS ) ?
Gerasis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 07:42 AM   #3684
belthazorrrrr
old hand
 
belthazorrrrr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,886
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Faster for scripting is the new version of Pio or the old one?
belthazorrrrr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 10:53 AM   #3685
punter11235
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: solving poker
Posts: 7,339
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Quote:
What is the top end of hardware requirements? E.g. 6 bet sizes, 3 raise sizes, 6 max ranges, how much RAM is required and about how large will the tree be and what kind of processing speed would be needed for a timely computation? Thanks.
Those are huge trees, you are unlikely to be able to assemble a machine which solves those at all (and surely not within reasonable time). You can use the free version to estimate size of various trees. I would do that for you but there are so many variables (exact sizings, cap used, stacks, starting pot, all-in threshold etc.) that I am unlikely to input the kind of tree you have in mind.
Quote:
Also could you give any guidelines about running PIO on cloud ?

Which parameters would be best ? AWS, Google Cloud or monthly server (not $/h like AWS ) ?
Dedicated servers are more convenient and cheaper. If you want some experimentation then cloud instances are ok as well although they are not really suited for our licensing system as you may get different hardware between VM invocations (which triggers our licensing system). As basic/pro licenses are in principle per machine (moving allow within reasonable limits) this causes problems.
You will always be able to get your license back but most cloud instances aren't a viable long term solution in case of basic/pro licenses and a bit of pain with the edge license.

As to hardware: you need enough RAM to be able to build trees you want, you can estimate the size using estimate button in treebuilding and calculation tab.
As to CPUs: as long as they are modern Intel (or Ryzen generation AMD) CPUs the speed is more or less proportional to number of cores multiplied by based frequency they run on (so 16 cores total @ 2.6Ghz gives a score of 16 * 2.6). You can easily compare the performance using this metric. With some multi core VPS insteances (cloud providers) the solver won't be able to use all the cores though (reasons unknown for now, it's a very rare problem).

Quote:
Faster for scripting is the new version of Pio or the old one?
The new one has some bugs fixed and performance improvement for some trees/hardware setups although sadly some trees converge less reliably due to floating number accuracy issues. I am improving the situation but right now there are some trees which just don't converge as well to very good accuracies (if you are using 0.3% or more you are unlikely to ever be affected). If you find such tree please send it to us.
punter11235 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 06:26 PM   #3686
26th bet/fold
stranger
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 5
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Hi, I have a question not related to PIOSolver but to Jesolver.

Is it still active? I mailed support about a week ago about buying it and I still haven't got a response. Can someone who bought a license explain to me what they did to buy one? Thanks in advance
26th bet/fold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2018, 06:53 AM   #3687
punter11235
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: solving poker
Posts: 7,339
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Quote:
Is it still active? I mailed support about a week ago about buying it and I still haven't got a response. Can someone who bought a license explain to me what they did to buy one? Thanks in advance
Sadly Oskari's interest in the project comes and goes these days. Jesolver is fast and stable but you are mostly on your own when it comes to support. If you want it, keep trying to contact him
punter11235 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2018, 02:02 PM   #3688
Fishtankz
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Fishtankz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 6,250
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

dumb question but if you run PIO for long time, (exploitable 1% -> 0.1%), does the .cfr file grow?
or does it just adjust the numbers.
is the final file size created during first calculation?
Fishtankz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 07:19 AM   #3689
punter11235
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: solving poker
Posts: 7,339
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Quote:
dumb question but if you run PIO for long time, (exploitable 1% -> 0.1%), does the .cfr file grow?
It doesn't. We don't allocate any new memory while solving.

Quote:
is the final file size created during first calculation?
Yes. The size is determined once the tree is build. The exception to this is node-locking (there is more memory used for every locked node).
punter11235 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 07:47 AM   #3690
7845
centurion
 
7845's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 121
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Where can i get info about piosolver spin and go preflop charts?
7845 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 03:07 PM   #3691
k4ir0s
stranger
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Anyone running PIO pro on a virtual server? Does it work on a VPS?

Would it use up the license by installing it on one?

The site states "Pro and basic versions are not suitable for cloud instances (VPS) but you can run them on dedicated servers where you get a dedicated machine."

Last edited by k4ir0s; 02-25-2018 at 03:16 PM.
k4ir0s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 04:03 PM   #3692
k4ir0s
stranger
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

^ After searching the thread it looks like I need a dedicated server. Punter, could you please point me to a server with reasonable specs (that can run pre and postflop)? I'm not too familiar with computer hardware..

Here's a list, I don't know which is good value to run pio pro version:
https://www.ovh.ie/dedicated_servers/all_servers.xml

Last edited by k4ir0s; 02-25-2018 at 04:32 PM.
k4ir0s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 07:52 PM   #3693
burneyj5
newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 24
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Can the free cloud solutions be viewed on Piosolver Free?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
burneyj5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 09:48 PM   #3694
punter11235
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: solving poker
Posts: 7,339
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Quote:
Where can i get info about piosolver spin and go preflop charts?
If you mean PioCloud solution I made an announcement here:
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...postcount=3635

That's all the information that is available about the packs.

Quote:
Anyone running PIO pro on a virtual server? Does it work on a VPS?
VPS are not suited for our basic/pro licenses because you get a different machine at every invocation. You can try it 1-2 times but sooner or later you will run out of activations. Dedicated servers are better for the purpose.

Quote:
The site states "Pro and basic versions are not suitable for cloud instances (VPS) but you can run them on dedicated servers where you get a dedicated machine."
The information is accurate.
You won't "lose" your license no matter what (unless we determine you are intentionally and repeatedly breaching the license terms which never happened so far) as we will restore it for you if it gets stuck somewhere but this is not a long term way to use the Pio licenses.

Quote:
Punter, could you please point me to a server with reasonable specs (that can run pre and postflop)? I'm not too familiar with computer hardware..
3 most popular providers used by our customers are:
-online.net
-contabo
-ovh

the order is random. We don't have resources to support/analyze offerings of server providers as they are constantly changing. It's a good idea to consult our Skype group about it, there is even one guy who will help you with setting up a server on Contabo.
In general solver's speed is proportional to number of physical cores multiplied by base frequency they run on so you can easily compare performance/price ratio you are getting.

Quote:
Can the free cloud solutions be viewed on Piosolver Free?
They can't.
The information in the saves is very minimal, most of it is recalculated on the fly and that requires full engine implementation.
punter11235 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 05:59 PM   #3695
+VLFBERH+T
grinder
 
+VLFBERH+T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: at the crossroads
Posts: 604
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Hi there, I have had an Edge subscription for a very long time but only now have a good enough computer (and never rented a server), so, some very basic questions regarding preflop, which I could not find answered in the introductory video or the FAQ's

1) What accuracy would be deemed decent for preflop? For postflop, I understand that it is recommended to solve until 0.25% - 0.5% of the pot. My guess would be that most users solve to less accuracy preflop?! Does anyone know, for example, which accuracy was used with PioCloud?

2) Does it make any difference in a situation like SB vs BB if the initial ranges are "empty", like so

or 100%? I would presume it doesn't matter; I have only solved one situation yet and started with 0% ranges, and only realized several hours into solving that in your video you start with 100% ranges for both players.

3) I solved the example tree from the video with (only) 10 flops.

SB raising J6s and J4s, but not J5s seems strange - am I correct that the reason for that should be the small amount of flops which somehow doesn't include enough 5's, or does it look like I made a mistake?

4) There are always two files for each preflop subset, for instance with 34 flops, the files 4_THREE_EQ_1__288.txt and 72_THREE_EQ_2__883.txt In the tutorial video, it would appear as if the narrator (Piotr or Kuba) chose one of the two files at random - are they just two "equally good" abstractions for each given number of subsets, and I don't need to care which one I happen to pick?
+VLFBERH+T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 06:17 PM   #3696
punter11235
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: solving poker
Posts: 7,339
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Quote:
1) What accuracy would be deemed decent for preflop? For postflop, I understand that it is recommended to solve until 0.25% - 0.5% of the pot. My guess would be that most users solve to less accuracy preflop?! Does anyone know, for example, which accuracy was used with PioCloud?
2bb-3bb/100 is good enough. Most of the PioCloud solution are solved to better accuracy than that (maybe all, I am not sure).

Quote:
2) Does it make any difference in a situation like SB vs BB if the initial ranges are "empty", like so
[/QUOTE]

Yes, there should be full for most cases (the exception is if you solve something like BTN steal with defined range vs BB).


Quote:
SB raising J6s and J4s, but not J5s seems strange - am I correct that the reason for that should be the small amount of flops which somehow doesn't include enough 5's, or does it look like I made a mistake?
10 flops is really not a lot. The subset has a lot of biases.

Quote:
4) There are always two files for each preflop subset, for instance with 34 flops, the files 4_THREE_EQ_1__288.txt and 72_THREE_EQ_2__883.txt In the tutorial video, it would appear as if the narrator (Piotr or Kuba) chose one of the two files at random - are they just two "equally good" abstractions for each given number of subsets, and I don't need to care which one I happen to pick?
Since 1.10 version we ship only recommended flops (the best out of the ones we shipped before). You can get them by running the installer/updater from here:

https://www.piosolver.com/blogs/news/piosolver-1-10
punter11235 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 06:59 PM   #3697
+VLFBERH+T
grinder
 
+VLFBERH+T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: at the crossroads
Posts: 604
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Since the very beginning, I'm still floored by the speed of your responses

Still, when I update with the updater, even if I do "Force update", it does not appear that the preflop_subsets folder was changed: still 2 files in each subfolder ...
+VLFBERH+T is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2018, 04:18 AM   #3698
punter11235
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: solving poker
Posts: 7,339
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Quote:
Still, when I update with the updater, even if I do "Force update", it does not appear that the preflop_subsets folder was changed: still 2 files in each subfolder ...
Solved by PM.
The updater won't overwrite the preflop_subsets folder (as we don't want to overwrite content potentially generated by the user if they have their own subsets). The solution is to remove that folder and then run the updater again.
punter11235 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2018, 08:16 AM   #3699
shahrad
old hand
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,589
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Feature request:
I would like to see which lines each hand takes more often like: BBB,BXB,XXB,XC-X-B,BBX,XBB, XC-XC-XR,...
I guess the first 3 lines any hand takes more often would be more than enough.
shahrad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2018, 11:45 PM   #3700
punter11235
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: solving poker
Posts: 7,339
Re: PioSOLVER - postflop equilibrium solver for Holdem

Quote:
Feature request:
I would like to see which lines each hand takes more often like: BBB,BXB,XXB,XC-X-B,BBX,XBB, XC-XC-XR,...
I guess the first 3 lines any hand takes more often would be more than enough.
shahrad is offline Report Post
Yeah, this is a good idea. At least for the lines where opponents always checks/call it will be easy to compare.
punter11235 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online