Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
ICM Cruncher ICM Cruncher

03-07-2018 , 05:55 PM
I'm planning on buying your iphone apps at some point soon. I do have a couple questions though. First, what is the different between the two odds apps? I haven't compared them in depth a ton, but from what I gather, one is basic introduction to odds and outs, while the other has equities and a bit more advanced stuff (MDF?). Also, I'm impressed you made Pokercruncher for iphone. Mainly because it's pretty powerful on mac and I'm shocked that anyone would go so indepth on hand analysis on a tiny phone screen.

IIRC in the ICM calculator description it says you can do push/call ranges for shortstack spots. Is this true? If so doesn't this just make snapshove app irrelevent if you can do the same thing in your app, plus ICM calculations in the same app.

Also, do you have any plans to develop/port any kind of solver tool to Mac/OSX? It would be super handy as a mac player to have some kind of solver tool. I'm not someone with the skillset to use a conversion program from windows software. Though I don't think I could run a solver on a Macbook Air, but I'd like to be able to on some kind of Mac if I ever replace my current computer.
ICM Cruncher Quote
03-07-2018 , 11:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfunnywobbl
First, what is the different between the two odds apps? I haven't compared them in depth a ton, but from what I gather, one is basic introduction to odds and outs, while the other has equities and a bit more advanced stuff (MDF?).
Which two odds apps? There are 4 iPhone apps in this set of apps: PokerCruncher, TournamentCruncher (aka ICMCruncher; old name), OddsTeacher, OddsQuizzer.
Sounds like you're talking about the latter two. OddsQuizzer is a set of quizzes on various important situations. OddsTeacher has fewer scenarios; its goal is to teach a general method for estimating equity in your head, e.g. by counting outs and counter-outs, using the Rule of 4&2, etc.
But without you being specific on which apps, I'm just guessing on the reply here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfunnywobbl
Also, I'm impressed you made Pokercruncher for iphone. Mainly because it's pretty powerful on mac and I'm shocked that anyone would go so indepth on hand analysis on a tiny phone screen.
Thanks.
I'm shocked that you're shocked : ), because having a powerful ranges equity calc on your iPhone/Android is pretty useful, so the iPhone version of PokerCruncher was actually the first app I built/shipped, about 10 years ago now. Live game poker players spend a lot of time away from their home/laptop/desktop so having an equity calc on your phone is very useful e.g. to check situations on breaks or between tourney stages or when getting food etc. Or when riding a bus, standing in a long line, endless places; an iPhone version was by far my first goal at the start of these apps.

The smallness of the iPhone screen does require a lot of screens and subscreens, but I think the UI works pretty efficiently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfunnywobbl
IIRC in the ICM calculator description it says you can do push/call ranges for shortstack spots. Is this true?
Where does it say this?
I don't think it says this. I just did a search on the app's description text and the word "range" has 0 occurrences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfunnywobbl
If so doesn't this just make snapshove app irrelevent if you can do the same thing in your app, plus ICM calculations in the same app.
I don't believe these two apps are an either/or, one or the other, decision. Having both of them might make sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfunnywobbl
Also, do you have any plans to develop/port any kind of solver tool to Mac/OSX? It would be super handy as a mac player to have some kind of solver tool.
By "solver" I take it you mean an EV solver or range solver, or maybe an ICM situation solver? But in any case, I have no plans right now for this on Mac's. So on Mac's it'll be just the Mac-Expert version of PokerCruncher per current plans.

Thanks for being a user of the Mac-Expert PokerCruncher version, and for checking out the iOS apps. -RJ
ICM Cruncher Quote
03-08-2018 , 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rj999
Which two odds apps? There are 4 iPhone apps in this set of apps: PokerCruncher, TournamentCruncher (aka ICMCruncher; old name), OddsTeacher, OddsQuizzer.
Sounds like you're talking about the latter two. OddsQuizzer is a set of quizzes on various important situations. OddsTeacher has fewer scenarios; its goal is to teach a general method for estimating equity in your head, e.g. by counting outs and counter-outs, using the Rule of 4&2, etc.
But without you being specific on which apps, I'm just guessing on the reply here.

Yeah, I was referring to the two apps you mentioned. Thanks.


Thanks.
I'm shocked that you're shocked : ), because having a powerful ranges equity calc on your iPhone/Android is pretty useful, so the iPhone version of PokerCruncher was actually the first app I built/shipped, about 10 years ago now. Live game poker players spend a lot of time away from their home/laptop/desktop so having an equity calc on your phone is very useful e.g. to check situations on breaks or between tourney stages or when getting food etc. Or when riding a bus, standing in a long line, endless places; an iPhone version was by far my first goal at the start of these apps.

The smallness of the iPhone screen does require a lot of screens and subscreens, but I think the UI works pretty efficiently.

True I guess I forgot about live players.


Where does it say this?
I don't think it says this. I just did a search on the app's description text and the word "range" has 0 occurrences.



I don't believe these two apps are an either/or, one or the other, decision. Having both of them might make sense.


"5) A push/call/fold ICM decision analyzer"

That's what I was referring too. I'm assuming from your reply this is a different feature than a shortstack push/call analyzer that gives nash. Sorry this might just be me not understanding the difference between ICM and shortstack shove/call ranges.

By "solver" I take it you mean an EV solver or range solver, or maybe an ICM situation solver? But in any case, I have no plans right now for this on Mac's. So on Mac's it'll be just the Mac-Expert version of PokerCruncher per current plans.

Yeah like I meant something like CardRunners EV or ideally PioSolver. Can't get either of those on mac, and they're the main software mac is still missing that windows has imo. Surprisingly compared to windows, mac is neglected in the poker software world, and you seem to be one of the only people that has taken the time to build poker software for Mac/iphone.

Thanks for being a user of the Mac-Expert PokerCruncher version, and for checking out the iOS apps. -RJ
.
ICM Cruncher Quote
03-08-2018 , 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfunnywobbl
That's what I was referring too. I'm assuming from your reply this is a different feature than a shortstack push/call analyzer that gives nash. Sorry this might just be me not understanding the difference between ICM and shortstack shove/call ranges.
Yes it's different. This feature doesn't compute Nash equilibrium ranges or any other type of optimal-type ranges by itself. Hence the description of it doesn't say "ranges" anywhere. It's a high-level push/call/fold ICM decision analyzer, where one of the inputs is your estimated equity against Villain's range. It's meant to be used in combination with PokerCruncher; that's the app where you'd construct ranges and calc equity. Other inputs are all of the players' stacks, and the bets that have been put in so far til the point of the decision. See the 4th and 5th screenshots of this app in the app store for an example of the simpler analyzer, the call or fold analyzer.

Re. "me not understanding the difference between ICM and shortstack shove/call ranges",
It's not about ICM vs. shove/call, but rather ICM works together with stack sizes and the range's equity, etc., to figure out the EV of the push/call/fold decision. In tournaments as you approach payout levels there can be large ICM/bubble effects, and a push/call/fold decision can be different and less obvious than in a cash game where there are obviously no ICM effects at all (it's just about the chips).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfunnywobbl
Yeah like I meant something like CardRunners EV or ideally PioSolver. Can't get either of those on mac, and they're the main software mac is still missing that windows has imo. Surprisingly compared to windows, mac is neglected in the poker software world, and you seem to be one of the only people that has taken the time to build poker software for Mac/iphone.
An EV program is a great idea of course. But it would be a ton of work and I don't plan on making one, at least in the current plans.

The Mac does have less software in general than Windows.
But I believe iPhone has a ton of software, maybe even more than Windows. There are millions of apps in the iOS app store. Even in just the poker space, there are dozens of poker odds calcs in the store. They may not all be high quality but that's another story.
ICM Cruncher Quote
03-08-2018 , 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rj999
Yes it's different. This feature doesn't compute Nash equilibrium ranges or any other type of optimal-type ranges by itself. Hence the description of it doesn't say "ranges" anywhere. It's a high-level push/call/fold ICM decision analyzer, where one of the inputs is your estimated equity against Villain's range. It's meant to be used in combination with PokerCruncher; that's the app where you'd construct ranges and calc equity. Other inputs are all of the players' stacks, and the bets that have been put in so far til the point of the decision. See the 4th and 5th screenshots of this app in the app store for an example of the simpler analyzer, the call or fold analyzer.

Re. "me not understanding the difference between ICM and shortstack shove/call ranges",
It's not about ICM vs. shove/call, but rather ICM works together with stack sizes and the range's equity, etc., to figure out the EV of the push/call/fold decision. In tournaments as you approach payout levels there can be large ICM/bubble effects, and a push/call/fold decision can be different and less obvious than in a cash game where there are obviously no ICM effects at all (it's just about the chips).


This is very clear, thank you.

An EV program is a great idea of course. But it would be a ton of work and I don't plan on making one, at least in the current plans.

The Mac does have less software in general than Windows.
But I believe iPhone has a ton of software, maybe even more than Windows. There are millions of apps in the iOS app store. Even in just the poker space, there are dozens of poker odds calcs in the store. They may not all be high quality but that's another story.

You're correct about the abundance of poker apps, but as you say, most are spotty at best and have little to no continuing support from devs. I'm sure eventually we will see Mac get some sort of EV calculator or solver.
Also, I was wondering in the Pokercruncher for Mac, is there any colour option for ranges? Mainly for ease of visualizing parts of a range. Say what I want to defend on the flop, but then split it by what I am raising vs calling and colour code those hands just to easily remember what I want to do with each hand.
ICM Cruncher Quote
03-08-2018 , 09:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfunnywobbl
Also, I was wondering in the Pokercruncher for Mac, is there any colour option for ranges? Mainly for ease of visualizing parts of a range. Say what I want to defend on the flop, but then split it by what I am raising vs calling and colour code those hands just to easily remember what I want to do with each hand.
Good all looks clear re. the 4 iPhone apps.

Re. the above feature suggestion, the PokerCruncher-Mac-Expert version thread would be a better place to discuss this, but no big problem of course.

This color-code-ranges suggestion has come up more than a few times, on the thread and on email, but I'm still not convinced enough on this feature to implement it.

Basically I feel this feature looks good at the start, superficially, but I don't think it's general enough and powerful enough a feature to be a good full solution for subranges. This has been a good feature to argue / discuss and I gave my reasons why in detail in this post on the Mac-Expert version thread.

In summary I think this color-coding feature would work for preflop subranges, but wouldn't be enough for postflop and later streets subranges, when flush draws and backdoor draws get involved. Because you then need to color-code at the hand-combo-level, not just the hand/cell-level, so then a given hand/cell would need to have 2, 3, etc. colors not just 1 color because some of its combos may be in one subrange and some other combos in another subrange. I also gave some other reasons in the post above (e.g. color overkill, color blindness).

So this suggestion is on my list but in a long term hold / thinking state.
Instead, for subranges, the current solution in the Mac-Expert version is to use the 100 range slots to store subranges. I personally reserve the first 10 slots for subranges work, and have my slots custom named for my usages. This section of the tutorial has more info. on working with subranges in the Mac-Expert version.

Last edited by rj999; 03-08-2018 at 09:53 PM. Reason: Minor wording
ICM Cruncher Quote

      
m