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Old 06-29-2007, 10:30 AM   #101
oracle3001
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

I don't think we will hear anything PT/PA HUD until this thing is actually released and reviews start to come in. There has been competition to these programs before and none have really managed to get any market share. But in my opinion none have looked anywhere near as well thought out and feature rich as this one.

Besides they might have the attitude that inertia may keep people using PT regardless of this new product. I reckon the vast majority of people (even mid stakes players) simply track there win/loses, look at their VPIP/PFR and replay at the odd hand. And for PA HUD just have the standard HUD up there, with the odd extra stat.

For those kind of people, are they going to be willing to shell out another $100-150, who know the answer to that. I think it depends a lot of how this new product is received.

I floated the idea of a major overhaul of the PT (PT v3 if you like) a little while ago on the PT forums. I stated the need for stuff like 3-betting, faster importing etc etc for serious players. I suggested that this could be funded by an upgrade fee (along the lines that PO did 12-18 months ago), and gradual removal of support for PT v2. The response with pretty much silence.
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Old 06-29-2007, 12:44 PM   #102
Filthy
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

100$ is ridiculously underpriced. You should be selling this for $500 MINIMUM and imo more in the 1k-2k range.

Oh and a question - you said you have 170 fields per player per hand. This sort of suggests you've gone the PT route of having a field for possible stats as opposed to just transforming the data to where any possible stat is easily extracted. Is there data loss in the import? and if so how much for betting information and hand/board strength information?
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Old 06-29-2007, 01:31 PM   #103
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

Quote:
100$ is ridiculously underpriced. You should be selling this for $500 MINIMUM and imo more in the 1k-2k range.

Oh and a question - you said you have 170 fields per player per hand. This sort of suggests you've gone the PT route of having a field for possible stats as opposed to just transforming the data to where any possible stat is easily extracted. Is there data loss in the import? and if so how much for betting information and hand/board strength information?
Hi,

The original hand history and the standard transformed xml based hand history (which is kind of what you are referring to I believe since this is a complete representation of the hand) are both available but a "PlayerHands" table with extracted values per player per hand is necessary otherwise performance would quickly take a nose dive.

Your concerns however are valid and I do have mechanisms to deal with this to ensure that the DB design at launch can be modified somewhat on the fly. Also, the DB design at Beta launch will likely change somewhat with new fields and potentially new tables based on feedback. As recently as a couple of days ago I added a bunch of new "3 barrel" stats for both the raiser and the player facing the 3rd raise on the river. I tried to make it as complete as possible but already I'm coming up with additional things I want to track.

One other thing that I'm going to be a little vague about and not talk about again until launch is that you do have the ability to create your own stats and have them appear in reports and the HUD. For example, you could make a "check raise turn all-in after check calling the flop" stat and call it the OOP Float Push. The ability to do things like this are more for me so that I can more easily make changes in the future but creative HM users have a lot of power under the hood to mess around with.

Regarding hand strengths, you might want to check out the hand value filter screen shot. For every hand on every street I have over 60 made hand values along with about 10 flush draw and 6 straight draw values.

Hope that answers your questions,

rvg
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Old 06-29-2007, 01:33 PM   #104
rvg72
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

Quote:

is possible to make a version with both TM and HM in?
when will it be available?
July 15th is public beta and I am toying around with the idea of making TM run as a plugin within HM but that won't happen any time soon. More likely I will have extra features built into TM that can use some of the new things HM brings to the table and vice versa.

rvg
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Old 06-29-2007, 01:38 PM   #105
Albert Silver
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

Quote:
100$ is ridiculously underpriced. You should be selling this for $500 MINIMUM and imo more in the 1k-2k range.
I think you are dreaming. It is a nice compliment, but not more than that. You are forgetting a few things:

It isn't entering a virgin market area. It is entering one with a couple of established giants, starting with the market reference, Poker Tracker + PAHUD, followed by PokerOffice. Neither of which cost more than $100. While I have no trouble believing it may be superior to either, the question is whether its superiority would justify this, and convince new prospective buyer to pay 10 times the amount.

The second even harder issue would be trying to win over satisfied users of PT and PO, and charge a premium price too. Right now I am a satisfied user of PO. I've had a few issues here and there over the last 2 years of use, but nothing insurmountable, and overall, I've gotten a LOT from it. I might convert if convinced, but I don't see that happening for 500 bucks. Remember that most players don't have $500 to spend on a program.

Albert
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Old 06-29-2007, 01:43 PM   #106
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

Quote:
100$ is ridiculously underpriced. You should be selling this for $500 MINIMUM and imo more in the 1k-2k range.

lol what? I think $100 is slightly steep IMO in terms of what I'm willing to pay, seeing as it's between 10-20% of my bankroll, but if the early reviews are good I'll make the switch. I'd have been more comfortable with $80.

question for rvg, seeing as this uses postSQRL, will I have to convert my file format from FAT to NTFS before I use this program? Is this risky at all?
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Old 06-29-2007, 01:52 PM   #107
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

Dunno if this is mentioned but...

You should really ad "Player moves" on the HUD (like PO does). You know... little leatters that indicate what was the player's move on each street... like:

CC/C/XR/B

being call-call/call/check-raise/bet
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Old 06-29-2007, 01:57 PM   #108
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

Quote:
Quote:
100$ is ridiculously underpriced. You should be selling this for $500 MINIMUM and imo more in the 1k-2k range.

lol what? I think $100 is slightly steep IMO in terms of what I'm willing to pay, seeing as it's between 10-20% of my bankroll, but if the early reviews are good I'll make the switch. I'd have been more comfortable with $80.

question for rvg, seeing as this uses postSQRL, will I have to convert my file format from FAT to NTFS before I use this program? Is this risky at all?
Hi,

You should probably run the Postgres DB on an NTFS partition although according to their documentation there is a work around to run it on a FAT drive but it's not recommended.

If there are any PostgreSQL experts here maybe they could jump in and correct me if I'm wrong.

I also don't think the $100 ($65 for manager, $35 for HUD) is "ridiculously underpriced". Albert pretty much sums up why.

Thanks,

rvg
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Old 06-29-2007, 02:05 PM   #109
aflaba
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

How is crypto support looking?
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Old 06-29-2007, 02:10 PM   #110
rvg72
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

Quote:
How is crypto support looking?
Hi,

I've received hand histories from crypto and a lot of other sites but haven't worked on them yet. I need to finish off a bunch of things in the app that need to be done for the beta launch before I can start adding in new sites. Once I'm happy with the final release candidate and it's in the hands of the private beta guys then I'll focus on adding new sites and try to get at least a couple more in for the beta launch.

Thanks,

rvg
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Old 06-29-2007, 03:02 PM   #111
kbar13
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

Sorry if you already covered this, but will I be able to filter the HUD stats for blind level as well as number of people left?
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Old 06-29-2007, 03:47 PM   #112
allyasia
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

this is probly not much useful for strong player, but weak player like me, it would be alot helpful.
on the Hud Stats, excluding all other player but me. if it's possible to add a pot odds + EV stats?
so, when i review my note, it's easier to find where my mistake are. plus, i will know if i am making the correct decision on #.##% of time.
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Old 06-29-2007, 05:16 PM   #113
halsted
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

RVG,

How is prima support coming?
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Old 06-29-2007, 10:43 PM   #114
Josem
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

Quote:
Sorry if you already covered this, but will I be able to filter the HUD stats for blind level as well as number of people left?
yes - actually, by stack relative to the size of the BB, which is more valuable.
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Old 06-30-2007, 02:23 AM   #115
Relvin
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

rvg this sounds very cool

I would just like to throw in my 2 cents. One of the biggest upgrades I am hoping for in this in regards to PokerTracker would be a much better hand replayer. I noticed you mentioned stats for players would be overlayed. It would be ideal if you could capture exactly the same stats as we have in our personalized huds so that we can figure out why we were making the decisions we were. Also the pause feature on my pokertracker hand replayer lags like crazy which is quite annoying.

Lastly, do you think that PokerManager would be able to handle a db with say 100million hands in it? If so, do you have any ideas on how big in terms of gigabites a database that size might be? I am just trying to be extreme to ensure I would never have to worry about db size.

Also, what are the chances that this will work with sixth sense in the future?

Thanks
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Old 06-30-2007, 03:33 AM   #116
BetYourLife
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

One more question, do you think it is possible to take my dbs from PT to you HM? Would be very nice
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Old 06-30-2007, 04:12 AM   #117
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

Will HM have a backup/restore feature like PT?

If I want to send a friend hand histories will I be able to back convert from the XML to standard FTP/PS format that his PT can read?
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Old 06-30-2007, 08:04 AM   #118
chris228
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

Hi

Whats about Ongame support? Ongame didnt writes .txt files, but have its own Database file (SQL).
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Old 06-30-2007, 11:14 AM   #119
rvg72
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

Here are some answers:

1) I probably won't be including any pot odd / ev stats in the HUD. If the sites don't have a problem with this then I might add it in the future. Showing current hand action from previous streets will be something I add to the HUD providing the site provides me this info somehow.

2) The Replayer will have the ability to show you the HUD stats at the time of the hand however this might take some time to implement. Initially it will be overall stats for all players at the time of the replay not the time of the hand.

3) 100 million hands!!! Well, I don't see why not although some things will run slower than others. I've had it up to 10 million hands and after a vacuum analyze it ran really well on my 2ghz machine. As hardware gets faster the performance will scale out nicely. 100 million hands will be somewhere around 400GB's.

4) SpadeEye has already said they will support it. I'm sure that if people like the product then Sixth Sense will at least consider adding support. I'll be glad to help any plugin authors integrate into HM and they should find it pretty easy to get what they need.

5) You can export your PT hand histories and import them into HM. You can't do this if you do not store hand histories in your PT Database because too much data / info would be missing for HM.

6) PostgreSQL has backup / restore so automatically HM can do this. You can't necesarilly import the XML hand histories back into the standard hand history format but I store the original hand history as well as the XML format so saving the originals back to disk is no problem.

7) Interesting that OnGame has its own database... I can probably support it without too much hassle.

rvg
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Old 06-30-2007, 11:19 AM   #120
Brit_Abroad
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

I own both PT & PO, and have to say it looks great. Will you support absolute poker? I can provide plenty of hand histories if you need them!
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Old 06-30-2007, 11:31 AM   #121
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

Quote:

5) You can export your PT hand histories and import them into HM. You can't do this if you do not store hand histories in your PT Database because too much data / info would be missing for HM.


rvg
Please allow importing directly from the PT database (handhistory table) so we don't have to go through the agonizing step of exporting HHs to files.
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Old 06-30-2007, 11:45 AM   #122
rvg72
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

Quote:
Quote:

5) You can export your PT hand histories and import them into HM. You can't do this if you do not store hand histories in your PT Database because too much data / info would be missing for HM.


rvg
Please allow importing directly from the PT database (handhistory table) so we don't have to go through the agonizing step of exporting HHs to files.
I will be allowing direct import - should be there before beta launch.

rvg
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Old 06-30-2007, 01:17 PM   #123
Powers_That_Be
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

Heres a question for you. So I have thousands of SNG's logged in my poker tracker database, but I never bother importing TS for them. So I am just a big loser as far as PT is concerned, but I really only use PT for data on other players. Now, Tourney Manager figures out where i finished from the HH's. When I import my database from PT to HM will it figure out where I finished and show my actual income from these?
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Old 06-30-2007, 01:40 PM   #124
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

Quote:
Heres a question for you. So I have thousands of SNG's logged in my poker tracker database, but I never bother importing TS for them. So I am just a big loser as far as PT is concerned, but I really only use PT for data on other players. Now, Tourney Manager figures out where i finished from the HH's. When I import my database from PT to HM will it figure out where I finished and show my actual income from these?
Yep, that would be a huge help for some of my old Pacific SNG HHs too. I used to have to work out ROI by hand and also worked out an equation get % of 1sts from the sum of chips gained and total SNGs played, but it would be great to be able see the rest of the stats.

No idea why PT doesn't do this anyway, as it's not that hard to detect where you busted and thus your place. I considered writing some code to make fake Pacific summaries, but wasn't sure what format PT expected them to be in.

Juk
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Old 06-30-2007, 03:02 PM   #125
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Re: New Software: Holdem Manager

Quote:
Here are some answers:

1) I probably won't be including any pot odd / ev stats in the HUD. If the sites don't have a problem with this then I might add it in the future.
I'm not really I like this idea, even as someone who has a really bad brain for mental arithmetic.

Quote:

2) The Replayer will have the ability to show you the HUD stats at the time of the hand however this might take some time to implement. Initially it will be overall stats for all players at the time of the replay not the time of the hand.
But this would be very worthwhile.
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