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Old 04-18-2021, 08:12 AM   #11776
rogorz
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by scylla View Post
Just to be clear, what we're being asked for here is input like geo3. This will create a bet corresponding to getting the money in geometrically in 3 bets. And this will only affect the current bet, and not the following ones?

The problem that I personally see with this feature is that some users will spam the entire tree building menu with it, resulting in trees that will make no sense. My counter-offer is to create geo50 input. This would mean that whichever geometric size is closest to 50% will be used. The advantage is that it's not possible to make mistakes with this function, and it will always lead to realistic play.
The problem with your offer of geo50 is that I genuinely don't see any situation where I would use it.

From what I can tell, what I'm proposing is how it works in Pio (here is a 3min video explaination), and I've seen multiple people using it, and it never seems to be confusing.


An extreme example of using geoX options would look like this (recreated in Excel because the inputs are too long to show in a screenshot of GTO+) :

The result is pretty similar to what it would be if I was using "With only 2 bets left, get the money in smoothly", except it keeps the multiple sizings, and it also does it when the bets are overbets, not only when they are around 70% pot.
And to me, creating this tree isn't confusing: when I input geo2, I know that in the following nodes I probably need to include geo1. You just follow the branches, and you have a tree with perfect geometric sizes. The "Go all-in if push less than 60% pot" option is perfect to prevent geo3/geo2 to be used when the pot is already big.

And this is an extreme example, most people would probably not use geoX sizings for raises anyway.

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Originally Posted by scylla View Post
We're happy to offer both (it's just coded input, and it's not difficult to write)
If you don't mind offering both, then I don't see why not
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Old 04-18-2021, 11:00 AM   #11777
2wk2slw
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by scylla View Post
If the database was solved with one of the later versions (v128 or later I believe) then a navigator should be present in the menu. See the screenshot below. A requirement for this navigator will be that all trees must be identical (same ranges, bets, pot, etc). A second requirement is that the preflop ranges must be symmetrical (so AA,AhKh will not be allowed, given that there's more h than c,d,s).
wow, thanks a lot. didn't notice these tree-navigator buttons
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Old 04-18-2021, 01:54 PM   #11778
terribad1234
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Is there a way to export hand class data? Right now you can press a button and it will pull up a spreadsheet containing each hand, equity, ev, bet/check frequencies and you can copy and paste the spreadsheet. Is there a way to do the same but for hand class data? Just being able to copy/paste every hand class with bet/check frequencies would be useful.
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Old 04-18-2021, 07:14 PM   #11779
Pedro Henrique
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by scylla View Post
Just to be clear, what we're being asked for here is input like geo3. This will create a bet corresponding to getting the money in geometrically in 3 bets. And this will only affect the current bet, and not the following ones?

The problem that I personally see with this feature is that some users will spam the entire tree building menu with it, resulting in trees that will make no sense. My counter-offer is to create geo50 input. This would mean that whichever geometric size is closest to 50% will be used. The advantage is that it's not possible to make mistakes with this function, and it will always lead to realistic play.

We're happy to offer both (it's just coded input, and it's not difficult to write), but it seems to me that geo3 input may result in all sorts of issues, and will be difficult to provide support for.



It will be possible to offer this for databases that were solved with "Extensive" storage, but I think that it would be best to disable this for "Basic" storage (provided that the turn/river is reached), given that otherwise there will be annoying loading times between hands due to recalculations.



Ok, I will take it into consideration.
Thanks for considering! These options would add much to the study routine and make much more practical for us who uses geometric bet sizes in our trees

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Old 04-19-2021, 03:01 AM   #11780
scylla
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by terribad1234 View Post
Is there a way to export hand class data? Right now you can press a button and it will pull up a spreadsheet containing each hand, equity, ev, bet/check frequencies and you can copy and paste the spreadsheet. Is there a way to do the same but for hand class data? Just being able to copy/paste every hand class with bet/check frequencies would be useful.
For this, mouse over the stat.
Now press F9 to fix the table.
You can now move your mouse away from the stat and click on the "Export" button.
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Old 04-19-2021, 03:04 AM   #11781
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogorz View Post
The problem with your offer of geo50 is that I genuinely don't see any situation where I would use it.

From what I can tell, what I'm proposing is how it works in Pio (here is a 3min video explaination), and I've seen multiple people using it, and it never seems to be confusing.


An extreme example of using geoX options would look like this (recreated in Excel because the inputs are too long to show in a screenshot of GTO+) :

The result is pretty similar to what it would be if I was using "With only 2 bets left, get the money in smoothly", except it keeps the multiple sizings, and it also does it when the bets are overbets, not only when they are around 70% pot.
And to me, creating this tree isn't confusing: when I input geo2, I know that in the following nodes I probably need to include geo1. You just follow the branches, and you have a tree with perfect geometric sizes. The "Go all-in if push less than 60% pot" option is perfect to prevent geo3/geo2 to be used when the pot is already big.

And this is an extreme example, most people would probably not use geoX sizings for raises anyway.


If you don't mind offering both, then I don't see why not
I think we'll just add both, and we'll agree to disagree.
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Old 04-19-2021, 12:27 PM   #11782
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Re: CardRunnersEV

I'm a bit of a poker newbie and have been studying using GTO+ and am really thankful for your awesome work. Since I'm also a developer I've been trying to write some automation to aid my studying, and am wondering about any other convenient ways to pull data out when in database mode. My thought is that I'd mainly like to create Hand Strength graphs similar to those in another program. Right now I can click the pop-out-icon for each node in the game tree for each flop in the database to get the hand data, but is there any way to do this in an automated (or bulk) fashion? If not, I wonder if there would be a way to open-source or document a specification for the .gto save files, as being able to read save files with Python (or your language of choice) would be an alternative solution to this problem.

Thanks again for the awesome program!

Last edited by Bobo Fett; 04-20-2021 at 03:26 AM. Reason: Removed program name.
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Old 04-20-2021, 12:53 PM   #11783
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by wetfeet2000 View Post
I'm a bit of a poker newbie and have been studying using GTO+ and am really thankful for your awesome work. Since I'm also a developer I've been trying to write some automation to aid my studying, and am wondering about any other convenient ways to pull data out when in database mode. My thought is that I'd mainly like to create Hand Strength graphs similar to those in another program. Right now I can click the pop-out-icon for each node in the game tree for each flop in the database to get the hand data, but is there any way to do this in an automated (or bulk) fashion? If not, I wonder if there would be a way to open-source or document a specification for the .gto save files, as being able to read save files with Python (or your language of choice) would be an alternative solution to this problem.

Thanks again for the awesome program!
At the moment this is not available, but I will consider it for future releases.
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Old 04-21-2021, 01:02 PM   #11784
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Re: CardRunnersEV

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Originally Posted by scylla View Post
At the moment this is not available, but I will consider it for future releases.
Thanks. After thinking about this over the last few days, what I'm realizing my request comes down to is a "Equity Bucket" display similar to the pie-chart graphs in a popular poker theory book. One author categorizes the hand vs range equities into 25% buckets (strong, good, weak, trash) and compares the two resulting pie-graphs to determine polarization advantage. I imagine this might be a great feature for FlopZilla, as the pie-charts are already there and this could be a simple toggle or advanced setting to add in the multiple-range view.
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Old 04-21-2021, 01:44 PM   #11785
B28Magic
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Hey guys, should we use the option "...get the money in smoothly"? and when?
I solved a tree with that option on and without that.
BB vs btn 25 bbs.
First point is that with smooth option IP cbet 1 size 30% close 100%, and without smooth, mixed strategy small size and big size no check.

From OOP point of view, when we check raise the flop, without that option we only bet (shove) or check on turn . less than pot size bet image 1
http://https://imgur.com/i56Kvwa

From the other side, without that option, it becomes weird for me.
OOP on turn bet a lot 1/3(its ok), but sometimes in some boards bet 70%, it means a lot of our stack as you can see on image 2, we bet 4400, pot has 6300 and we have 1900 left. For me it doesnt make sense.
http://https://imgur.com/i56Kvwa

Another thing, i know that from gto point of view all sizes performs close. but people use diferent sizes, like 30% and 70% flop. 2 C/R sizes , small size turn and big size, overbet too. Do you know something like youtube videos or other thing that can help me to find the most used sizes to 15 bbs 25 bbs 40bbs 60bbs 100bbs? I dont have a good Computer so i cant put a lot of sizes and test the better.
Thanks
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Old 04-21-2021, 02:31 PM   #11786
scylla
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by B28Magic View Post
Hey guys, should we use the option "...get the money in smoothly"? and when?
I solved a tree with that option on and without that.
BB vs btn 25 bbs.
First point is that with smooth option IP cbet 1 size 30% close 100%, and without smooth, mixed strategy small size and big size no check.

From OOP point of view, when we check raise the flop, without that option we only bet (shove) or check on turn . less than pot size bet image 1
http://https://imgur.com/i56Kvwa

From the other side, without that option, it becomes weird for me.
OOP on turn bet a lot 1/3(its ok), but sometimes in some boards bet 70%, it means a lot of our stack as you can see on image 2, we bet 4400, pot has 6300 and we have 1900 left. For me it doesnt make sense.
http://https://imgur.com/i56Kvwa

Another thing, i know that from gto point of view all sizes performs close. but people use diferent sizes, like 30% and 70% flop. 2 C/R sizes , small size turn and big size, overbet too. Do you know something like youtube videos or other thing that can help me to find the most used sizes to 15 bbs 25 bbs 40bbs 60bbs 100bbs? I dont have a good Computer so i cant put a lot of sizes and test the better.
Thanks
"With only 2 bets left, get the money in smoothly" means that if the stack-to-pot ratio becomes low, the tree builder will take over and get the last money in with two geometrically sized bets. It will ensure that the final play makes sense for the stack-to-pot ratio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by B28Magic View Post
but sometimes in some boards bet 70%, it means a lot of our stack as you can see on image 2, we bet 4400, pot has 6300 and we have 1900 left. For me it doesnt make sense.
Yes, this is the sort of spot that the option "Get the money in smoothly" will prevent.
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Old 04-21-2021, 03:26 PM   #11787
B28Magic
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by scylla View Post
"With only 2 bets left, get the money in smoothly" means that if the stack-to-pot ratio becomes low, the tree builder will take over and get the last money in with two geometrically sized bets. It will ensure that the final play makes sense for the stack-to-pot ratio.



Yes, this is the sort of spot that the option "Get the money in smoothly" will prevent.
So should i use that option, to 30bbs and less? Or always?
I heard someone say that this option makes the trees inaccurate, and to never use it. I have same trees with it enable and another disable, and the results are diferent as expected, i dont know if i should use it or not
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Old 04-22-2021, 03:03 AM   #11788
scylla
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Re: CardRunnersEV

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Originally Posted by B28Magic View Post
So should i use that option, to 30bbs and less? Or always?
I heard someone say that this option makes the trees inaccurate, and to never use it. I have same trees with it enable and another disable, and the results are diferent as expected, i dont know if i should use it or not
This option is mostly intended for deeper stacks, where 3 or more bets are required to get the money in. If there's 2 bets (or less) to be made, then you may prefer to turn it off. Shallow stacks are a bit tricky. The problem is that either the tree builder will need to ignore the user's input, and replace it with play that works for the stack-to-pot ratio. Or it needs to perform the user's requested bet sizes, regardless of how well they apply to the situation.

That being said, if only 2 bets can be made, then you may probably just as well use the "Basic" tree builder, given that the play is restricted to bet-push. Any customization can then be made with the editor afterwards. If 3 bets or more can be made, then it's probably best to turn the option ON.

Last edited by scylla; 04-22-2021 at 03:22 AM.
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Old 04-22-2021, 04:42 AM   #11789
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Hello Scylla, I'm renting a virtual machine on Tresorio and currently I'm using 10 vCPU, 128 GO ram, no advance GPU (default one), and 100GO SSD Storage.

Would you recommand more vCPU ? Less Ram (I'm using the override command), better SSD Storage ?

https://zupimages.net/up/21/16/7t2n.jpg


Thanks!
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Old 04-22-2021, 05:12 PM   #11790
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Re: CardRunnersEV

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Originally Posted by FrenchUsername View Post
Hello Scylla, I'm renting a virtual machine on Tresorio and currently I'm using 10 vCPU, 128 GO ram, no advance GPU (default one), and 100GO SSD Storage.

Would you recommand more vCPU ? Less Ram (I'm using the override command), better SSD Storage ?

https://zupimages.net/up/21/16/7t2n.jpg


Thanks!
A faster CPU (or more cores) should result in faster solving times. RAM will only affect the largest possible tree that can be solved, where 128GB should be far more than is needed. As for GPU and SSD, neither will affect the performance. So basically, the most important factor is the CPU speed and its number of cores.

Last edited by scylla; 04-22-2021 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 04-22-2021, 11:29 PM   #11791
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Hey scylla have you looked at all in the possibility of using GPU cores to solve the trees? I'm by far not an expert on the subject, but as far as I understand in any job that can be heavily parallelized (which I assume solving can, because it scales so well with CPU cores) it's better to use GPU processing because they have many many more cores than CPUs.

I'm surprised that all the publicly available solvers run only on CPU, so maybe there is something obvious I'm missing.
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Old 04-23-2021, 02:06 PM   #11792
Pedro Henrique
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by scylla View Post

It will be possible to offer this for databases that were solved with "Extensive" storage, but I think that it would be best to disable this for "Basic" storage (provided that the turn/river is reached), given that otherwise there will be annoying loading times between hands due to recalculations.
Hi scyla, there is some expected time of arrival for this feature?
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Old 04-24-2021, 03:05 AM   #11793
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Re: CardRunnersEV

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Originally Posted by getmeoffcompletely View Post
Hey scylla have you looked at all in the possibility of using GPU cores to solve the trees? I'm by far not an expert on the subject, but as far as I understand in any job that can be heavily parallelized (which I assume solving can, because it scales so well with CPU cores) it's better to use GPU processing because they have many many more cores than CPUs.

I'm surprised that all the publicly available solvers run only on CPU, so maybe there is something obvious I'm missing.
We can look into this, although a problem there is that beyond a certain number of threads, it becomes increasingly difficult to divide up the work into smaller tasks.

Last edited by scylla; 04-24-2021 at 03:11 AM.
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Old 04-24-2021, 03:07 AM   #11794
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Re: CardRunnersEV

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Originally Posted by Pedro Henrique View Post
Hi scyla, there is some expected time of arrival for this feature?
I think that we'll begin adding this on Monday (I'm not entirely sure how much work this will turn out to be) and post an update at the start of May. No promises though, given that unexpected issues are inherent to software development.

Last edited by scylla; 04-24-2021 at 03:14 AM.
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Old 04-24-2021, 01:30 PM   #11795
newguyhere
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Question about studying turn strategies...

Let's say the solver wants to bet small on the flop at like 80%. I think most would just simplify and bet their entire range.

So should I be node locking to actually bet at 100% on the flop to get a more realistic turn strategy?
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Old 04-24-2021, 04:15 PM   #11796
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Are we expecting an update soon? and if so, what are the upcoming features?
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Old 04-24-2021, 06:21 PM   #11797
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Re: CardRunnersEV

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Originally Posted by scylla View Post
I think that we'll begin adding this on Monday (I'm not entirely sure how much work this will turn out to be) and post an update at the start of May. No promises though, given that unexpected issues are inherent to software development.
Thanks!
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Old 04-25-2021, 02:16 AM   #11798
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Re: CardRunnersEV

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So should I be node locking to actually bet at 100% on the flop to get a more realistic turn strategy?
Yes!
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Old 04-25-2021, 03:14 AM   #11799
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Re: CardRunnersEV

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Are we expecting an update soon? and if so, what are the upcoming features?
As stated in post #11794, we will probably release an update at the start of May.
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Old 04-25-2021, 03:16 AM   #11800
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Re: CardRunnersEV

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Originally Posted by newguyhere View Post
Question about studying turn strategies...

Let's say the solver wants to bet small on the flop at like 80%. I think most would just simplify and bet their entire range.

So should I be node locking to actually bet at 100% on the flop to get a more realistic turn strategy?
It's probably better to use the editor and remove the unwanted action.
Your tree will become smaller, and solve faster.

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