GTO GTO+/CardRunnersEV? - Page 403 - Poker Software -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

There's no optimal size on the flop either. When playing GTO, all bet sizes will perform almost exactly the same. What I'm saying that it's not necessary to create overly complex play on the turn/river. Simple play is sufficient for estimating the EVs for the hands in the followup lines here. Your trees will be smaller, and solve faster. There's no need for all the additional details.

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06-11-2020 , 03:47 PM

#10053

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,359

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dejavudu666

I've been pondering over this notion and asking members of the community their thoughts...

Undeniably EV's are almost identical for different sizings OTF & OTT whereas I may be mistaken but OTR they will be different. However the EV for the different sizings is assuming villain is defending optimally whereas real life opponents aren't. Then we know most gto strategies will contain polarised and merge betting due to range and nut advantage but these are only a construct of how our ranges interact as opposed to choosing the highest EV bet sizing.

It's more about equity realization and balance. Although I will say we can utilize bet sizings villain may be least familiar with or that he will defend least optimally against.

It mostly relates to the approach of using multiple bet sizes to see which is used most often. This approach doesn't work, given that all bet sizes perform nearly exactly the same. The choice of which bet size is used most frequently is mostly a coincidence. Within any given dEV, there's many different configurations that all work.

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06-11-2020 , 03:48 PM

#10054

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,359

Quote:

Originally Posted by personalpokercoach

Is there a chance you can change the shortcut to lock combos? (F9). I know there will be only a few people who will have this issue, I don't have F9 in my keyboard since I have a small one.

Can you please add another shortcut or perhaps make it possible to change the shortcut?

Ok, I wasn't aware that there's keyboards without F9.
I will see what I can do here.

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06-11-2020 , 03:58 PM

#10055

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,359

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dejavudu666

Hi scylla, on the solver screen when we enter rake % & cap.. With cap, is the unit of measurement BB's? And if the starting pot and a stack size is scaled 1-10 should we scale the cap size aswell.
For instance 100bb cash game BU v BB starting pot 55 eff stack 975 should the cap be 3 or 30 to represent a 3bb cap?

You can use any unit that you prefer, as long as you do so consistently.
So the same unit needs to be used for pot, stacks, cap, etc.

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06-11-2020 , 03:58 PM

#10056

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,359

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dejavudu666

Also any plans to add an EV comparison heat map on the matrix of different actions, this will remove the need to node lock for range bet spots which can hasten workflow considerably

Ok, I will consider it for future releases.

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06-11-2020 , 04:07 PM

#10057

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,359

Quote:

Originally Posted by squip

I have run a couple of trees BU vs BB obliging BU to check behind 100% of his range, and then compared EV with a normal tree where he can normally bet.

Surprisinigly, there are some boards like 654r or QJ7sss where EV is consistently sup close or even bigger when checking 100%, than when having the option to bet. I don't see how could EV be bigger, I guess it's because of the 0,5% solving margin I'm using?

Are you actually checking OOP's overall EV for his very first decision?
See the screenshot below.

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06-11-2020 , 04:08 PM

#10058

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,359

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoLife

About playing against solution: is possible to drill only flop or only turn?

Yes, for this, navigate to the desired decision with the tree navigator on top of the screen. Then, in the "Play against the solution" feature, select the option "Drill the current decision".

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06-11-2020 , 10:38 PM

#10059

Dejavudu666

grinder

Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 428

Quote:

Originally Posted by scylla

You can use any unit that you prefer, as long as you do so consistently.

So the same unit needs to be used for pot, stacks, cap, etc.

Ok, so if we're solving 100bb cash game but using x10 I.e
Starting pot 55 (instead of 5.5)
Effective stack 975 (instead of 97.5)
And the cap is 3bb... We would put 30?

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06-12-2020 , 02:27 AM

#10060

Michel.be

enthusiast

Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 91

Quote:

Originally Posted by scylla

This might help :
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...l#post55595718

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogorz

Given the talks about different bet sizes and EV, I decided to actually try to see the effect of giving the solver different options. Here are the results :

I did 3 different boards with tight UTG vs BB ranges to speed up the process, solved to 0.05% dEV. This is the IP EV for all the sizings options. OOP has no donk bet option. Pot is 5BB, Stack is 100BB, no rake.

It seems that simplifying the flop strategy to a single sizing doesn't really lose EV (especially with a small sizing), but it's still better to have multiple sizings on the turn and river (which is fine since they solve really quickly anyway).
If you still want to simplify all streets, any sizing between 50% and 100% pot is similar. Really small sizing on all street is the worst option (which makes sense).

Last edited by Michel.be; 06-12-2020 at 02:32 AM.

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06-12-2020 , 04:14 AM

#10061

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,359

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel.be

This might help :
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...l#post55595718

Yes, basically any reasonable sizing performs roughly 3% below using multiple sizes. However, using multiple sizes in optimal play is basically a superhuman level of play. Within using single sizes, any reasonable bet size performs nearly the same.

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06-12-2020 , 04:16 AM

#10062

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,359

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dejavudu666

Ok, so if we're solving 100bb cash game but using x10 I.e
Starting pot 55 (instead of 5.5)
Effective stack 975 (instead of 97.5)
And the cap is 3bb... We would put 30?

Yes, if the bb is 10, and the cap is 3bb, then the cap is 3x10=30.

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06-12-2020 , 11:24 AM

#10063

djz

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 2,478

In quiz mode, would it be possible to just do ace-hi flops, or two-tone flops....or ace-hi and two-tone for example?

Quote

06-12-2020 , 01:44 PM

#10064

jaym99

newbie

Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel.be

This might help :
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...l#post55595718

Funny you wrote this, I just spent the past few hours looking at this exact thing. I came up with a different approach - I used multiple sizings on the flop, then 1 size and an all-in on the turn and river (75%). Didn't really matter in the end, but I like multiple flop sizings. The one thing that I figured out this week is that after it's solved, you can change the turn and river sizings with about 2 clicks and you don't have to type a thing. You can set up a turn/river betting profile then switch to it in the tree builder and recalc.

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06-12-2020 , 04:42 PM

#10065

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,359

Quote:

Originally Posted by djz

In quiz mode, would it be possible to just do ace-hi flops, or two-tone flops....or ace-hi and two-tone for example?

You can use the flop filters in the database to set restrictions to which flops are used.
This will also be used for "Play against the solution".

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06-13-2020 , 02:08 PM

#10066

Mates.

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2019 Posts: 245

Scylla, thanks for answerings my doubts..

1)Could you add the geometric bets in advance settings but also choose other bet sizes?

Example IP turn

1g (geometrical bet 1 street) 30, 75 etc

2) Could the filter be added to these tabs with the right click?

https://imgur.com/a/wNsGHfg

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06-13-2020 , 07:34 PM

#10067

mjm

adept

Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 790

Is there a way for me to lock a flop decision for IP, then change the OOP range and rerun the sim keeping the locked flop decision for IP?

Quote

06-14-2020 , 02:41 AM

#10068

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,359

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mates.

1) This is unfortunately not possible, because the turn line can be reached with different stack-to-pot ratios.
2) Ok, I will consider it for future releases.

Last edited by scylla; 06-14-2020 at 02:47 AM.

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06-14-2020 , 02:43 AM

#10069

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,359

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjm

Is there a way for me to lock a flop decision for IP, then change the OOP range and rerun the sim keeping the locked flop decision for IP?

For this I suppose you could click on the "Data" button for the IP decision. There, use "Copy to clipboard" to store the decision data. After that, rebuild the tree with the new range for OOP and reload the data with "Paste from clipboard".

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06-14-2020 , 06:30 AM

#10070

squip

centurion

Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 137

Quote:

Originally Posted by scylla

Are you actually checking OOP's overall EV for his very first decision?
See the screenshot below.

Locked OOP for 100% check like in your image, that's right.
But I'm actually comparing IP's decision, so going to this tab and comparing EV's of GTO vs 100% check : https://gyazo.com/d8738733ccb6ee23e884e9888601f306

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06-14-2020 , 12:20 PM

#10071

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,359

Quote:

Originally Posted by squip

If OOP checks 100%, and therefore only has one action, then looking at IP's EV will work as well.

However, if OOP has multiple actions, then you should either look at hís EV, or mouse over his EV. This will display IP's overall EV. Looking at IP's EV in just one of the followup actions will not work, given that his overall EV is a weighted average of all possible actions for OOP.

Last edited by scylla; 06-14-2020 at 12:26 PM.

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06-14-2020 , 04:33 PM

#10072

mongoose0141

centurion

Join Date: Jul 2017 Posts: 188

hey scylla. not sure if this has been suggested before or if it's possible to implement, but there's one feature i would love to see for "play against the solution".

it would be great if we could define a line and then drill specifically that spot from a database. for example, i might want to look at spots where the flop goes x/b/c and the turn goes x/x. and then play just those spots from my database of boards.

also wanted to say you've done an awesome job on the program, especially wrt adding user requests. i've been a customer for a couple years now (since GTO+ was an extra included with CREV) and it just keeps getting better and better.

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06-14-2020 , 05:36 PM

#10073

RyanWCollins

journeyman

Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 212

I've processed a database of 111 flop (GTO+ subset) where every flop successfully was solved except one, due to sufficient RAM. GTO+ is already taking ~6.5GB ram by just idling in GTO+ in the database file. I think I have sufficient RAM if I solve the remaining flop (852r) independently, but how can I merge them to get correct weights?