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Old 11-23-2015, 05:32 PM   #4951
expiat
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Re: CardRunnersEV

The feature "custom checkdown equities" works only when 2 players are defined as preflop actors (For example: BU minraises and SB calls).When 3 players are defined as actors it doesnt work (even for the similar HU spot where BU minraises SB calls and BB folds).

Could you please implement this feature for that kind of spots? I need it because I am developing BU stealing strategy and need take into account all cumulative frequencies playing vs SB and BB to see resulting BU's EVs!

I also see that other people request that too!!

Thanks in advance!!
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Old 11-24-2015, 04:35 AM   #4952
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by expiat View Post
The feature "custom checkdown equities" works only when 2 players are defined as preflop actors (For example: BU minraises and SB calls).When 3 players are defined as actors it doesnt work (even for the similar HU spot where BU minraises SB calls and BB folds).

Could you please implement this feature for that kind of spots? I need it because I am developing BU stealing strategy and need take into account all cumulative frequencies playing vs SB and BB to see resulting BU's EVs!

I also see that other people request that too!!

Thanks in advance!!
Ok, I'll see if I can work this out.

Cheers,

Scylla
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Old 11-25-2015, 08:45 AM   #4953
pokoteng
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Hello Scylla!



http://ppt.cc/vYcGi

I found out I could use equilibrium tool even when then turn and river are unknown. CREV still gives me range number(ex: jam x% call y%). But without actually telling you which hand to jam or call. I wonder how does the software work? Does it enumerate every possible turn and river cards(49*48 different kinds) and calculates the nash equilibrium of each kind (according to the tree you gave her) then gives me back the average jam/call percent? So the software couldn't really tell me the specific hands to jam/call because it depends on which turn/river card I get?

Love the software, I feel like you've opened the Pandora's box.

pokoteng

Last edited by pokoteng; 11-25-2015 at 08:49 AM. Reason: couldn't see my pic
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Old 11-25-2015, 03:10 PM   #4954
scylla
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokoteng View Post
Hello Scylla!



http://ppt.cc/vYcGi

I found out I could use equilibrium tool even when then turn and river are unknown. CREV still gives me range number(ex: jam x% call y%). But without actually telling you which hand to jam or call. I wonder how does the software work? Does it enumerate every possible turn and river cards(49*48 different kinds) and calculates the nash equilibrium of each kind (according to the tree you gave her) then gives me back the average jam/call percent? So the software couldn't really tell me the specific hands to jam/call because it depends on which turn/river card I get?

Love the software, I feel like you've opened the Pandora's box.

pokoteng
Yes, the solver does indeed work on unknown turns+rivers as well. One thing you may not have noticed yet though is that the software also contains a tree building wizard. To bring it up, right-click on a node.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokoteng View Post
CREV still gives me range number(ex: jam x% call y%). But without actually telling you which hand to jam or call. I wonder how does the software work? Does it enumerate every possible turn and river cards(49*48 different kinds) and calculates the nash equilibrium of each kind (according to the tree you gave her) then gives me back the average jam/call percent? So the software couldn't really tell me the specific hands to jam/call because it depends on which turn/river card I get?
Yes, the frequencies on unknown turns/rivers are the weighed average of all possible turn/river runouts. And indeed, it's for this reason that it can't tell you these frequencies for individual hands on unkown boards.

For example, if the flop is Th9h3d then AhKh may be a push on a 4h turn, but a check on a 4s turn. Given that hands are played differently depending on what the turn/river is it's not possible to display the results for all 47 possible turns in a single matrix.

If you want to know how hands are played on some specific turn though, then you can simply bring it up by entering that turn and recomputing (with F7).
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Old 11-25-2015, 11:00 PM   #4955
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Re: CardRunnersEV

I want to find a gto approach starting from flop and approaching an unknown turn. (I've sent you a save file via pm I believe). I have ranges for both hero (oop) and villain and want to quickly see what best options are before turn. From there I want to input turns and do the same for unknown river. Surely there is an easy way to do this... I've watched the equilibrium vids but frankly they're a bit over simplified (preflop shove fold etc). It's my understanding that I can basically do this in less than a min using pio or gtorb but I'd like to do it thru crev so I can change/lockin certain ranges as I go to make things more realistic. I'm sure many users will have this same question so hopefully you can give a step by step reply here in forum as opposed to via pm.

Here's a screen shot of what I'm starting with and below a c/p of save file:



Quote:
[CardRunnersEV v3.1.6]
[This text block contains a savefile for CardRunnersEV]
[Use Ctrl+I to import into CardRunnersEV]
[www.cardrunnersev.com]
[pd0VByK?X8+j2yAjB6T$cyrECx?T-QYIg&Oyik80M7K10AZs1694Qx1fF50?4Wg2m6bw@H]
[+68cdwFKAyl5KD=_5*(j9e&.)FXn=B#!1$*d@?seAv4o=FO*-n-P_doGeAsbM.ThUj#@D$]
[T!+1CWhaODYxCM9JouUI8GAltzoWIiNQaERZM&SLnGHc2DedRo @T3@IUeF&OO8xuboOO#_]
[Lg_+CwcFX6Ioo42p3BKCvVQHyUE&xbe-kiB1zIJDtx9JwJ0Zmj0ENCCesl_7uteU99mNUJ]
[k-sJhHXMu25F+wLbR3BlxS_Z`EE`jKKFRN#UC.aUZkGc1+@wVhrx d4zcqH@age_J1!gfr$]
[9woCRP6tsix#6R6dwpufUCbP7H7f65zbhLGC6zAaNUqlyDcUlE #rp$n?XpLPdY1YlnW3@V]
[hK7`RD`J4hRL1YMMTRfCzuQWcE_ojjbo$-GhCE0hl8Dtx.k6MnT8HX?!PL@tb#Y5ECCkCx]
[ZDI2+sZQKEqW@PE6#LQmFuywND2yA1JyXBElxwHzH0?WJN+I5Z 4jyw+tu85KXu7@ceyO3U]
[KM&x&$WdH7m6D5EZ6fRWlmJPfRh5LzjxV_OVB1?V+QRtcr$N#1 WGACzh2HWitm.yv$3PcB]
[zJ8V&2LLD-SSFG$9+I9DQvpgpjCjdnU&HFbSn164gm0hGyknk2txJsg9kH3$ fSz!d?hLIK]
[kEumYLxKCfn99Gon!slS9qOn8qh@DJuA8wZ-xEFtc&L&Ml0QW5z572z9pwfelSi3yq?XZX]
[TbUZItH@t0us+tf]
FYI I've got this in tournament mode with both stacks at 35k and 35bb eff in a winner take all scenario. I'm only interested in cEV.

Last edited by squintster; 11-25-2015 at 11:26 PM.
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Old 11-26-2015, 01:55 AM   #4956
kyledyle
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Do you know the best solution to run the program if I'm on a Mac?

Running it on wine would be ideal since it's free. Do you know if that works? If not that do you know if it works with another option, like Parallels for example? I'm very unfamiliar with doing anything like this, so I hate to buy Parallels + windows key, and then have the program still not work.

Thanks!
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Old 11-26-2015, 04:30 AM   #4957
scylla
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by squintster View Post
I want to find a gto approach starting from flop and approaching an unknown turn. (I've sent you a save file via pm I believe). I have ranges for both hero (oop) and villain and want to quickly see what best options are before turn. From there I want to input turns and do the same for unknown river. Surely there is an easy way to do this... I've watched the equilibrium vids but frankly they're a bit over simplified (preflop shove fold etc). It's my understanding that I can basically do this in less than a min using pio or gtorb but I'd like to do it thru crev so I can change/lockin certain ranges as I go to make things more realistic. I'm sure many users will have this same question so hopefully you can give a step by step reply here in forum as opposed to via pm.

Here's a screen shot of what I'm starting with and below a c/p of save file:





FYI I've got this in tournament mode with both stacks at 35k and 35bb eff in a winner take all scenario. I'm only interested in cEV.
In order to build the tree all you need to do is right-click on the decision node. This will bring up the tree building wizard. Other than that, you'll need to switch to cash game mode, however, given that it's winner-takes-all, this should not be a problem. That's pretty much all there is to it. If you want a demonstration then please watch update video 4 on the website: http://www.cardrunnersev.com/equilibrium.html
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Old 11-26-2015, 04:33 AM   #4958
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyledyle View Post
Do you know the best solution to run the program if I'm on a Mac?

Running it on wine would be ideal since it's free. Do you know if that works? If not that do you know if it works with another option, like Parallels for example? I'm very unfamiliar with doing anything like this, so I hate to buy Parallels + windows key, and then have the program still not work.

Thanks!
To the best of my knowledgde CrossOver is the program to go with here.
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Old 11-27-2015, 12:49 AM   #4959
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by scylla View Post
In order to build the tree all you need to do is right-click on the decision node. This will bring up the tree building wizard. Other than that, you'll need to switch to cash game mode, however, given that it's winner-takes-all, this should not be a problem. That's pretty much all there is to it. If you want a demonstration then please watch update video 4 on the website: http://www.cardrunnersev.com/equilibrium.html
I think I've got it a bit better figured out finally I'll bother you later with questions

EDIT: found one. So after I've found equilibrium for both players, and I see one player is raising a hand in the custom range, likely for balance, and I feel this opp wouldn't do that, how do I remove that hand from the custom range and send it to the next option? I tried doing a skip condition but it doesn't seem to work when i move it above the custom range.

Last edited by squintster; 11-27-2015 at 01:16 AM.
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Old 11-27-2015, 04:36 AM   #4960
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by squintster View Post
I think I've got it a bit better figured out finally I'll bother you later with questions

EDIT: found one. So after I've found equilibrium for both players, and I see one player is raising a hand in the custom range, likely for balance, and I feel this opp wouldn't do that, how do I remove that hand from the custom range and send it to the next option? I tried doing a skip condition but it doesn't seem to work when i move it above the custom range.
You will need to lock the condition (by right-clicking it). An unlocked condition will also need to be present in the action so that the solver knows that it will need to find an equilibrium for the remaining hands.



For more on locking please watch update video 4: http://www.cardrunnersev.com/equilibrium.html

Code:
[CardRunnersEV v3.1.6]
[This text block contains a savefile for CardRunnersEV]
[Use Ctrl+I to import into CardRunnersEV]
[www.cardrunnersev.com]
[!aXQSeYLwjoI.f5fzy5VykjJbvqoBckjMkAmmlwslAZP#rijEUJms8gR1jB$O!19@jZ2Rl]
[QW2z=Bj*(hk#A_)$s@=_.YKi*1$xyNHWLM=RD*9Cd1HY.2F6w.vsnFObHH02aGsDLei$i_]
[?qs$#05Xei1tr46nyjo7M6w!yCjP40AWv-+Nvw#WpP5Xkb99#Ca3vBr+CSpb1ehxM5u7y8]
[r5YC045Ng_MOig$qFsEbr36DWfE90o63aHSLdjLPzDkQVcHD#mNLS+Uhv16N%z?3frSlGM]
[3@zji369DNDQFX#_Lk0mm6Iofp9tpUq9FkihpJUqf5Kt7zItLdvClz-i4dlF2vK5U$-vnt]
[u$-Ih@2JdoLhNS2MTLnlSBe!#KfDWDts?@RSQ.HvQEHr.$K_?ocq8Lac_zx!A34QhbUg?U]
[4wxhq?SuXkQ6V$dwUZaXVen9qE+6.&wKO0jXyud`5$`-z.cO1D9?LpdArR@3F8X2N$03cM]
[GO7Ay6xeGDT0@eeUOnv4-9ygT`Hx`sUeaUi.HvBz&r#S2G5bLNf7eGKQRLjK1o2?BrHdyv]
[_bc2420v!IP5hGD@TX0Y6tGgXLmHTV@BftRKcQv5@LkojIUyIvic5E4J.EHziJxhtk-pu.]
[yD5.JXReEY+CFj@aCJBtetBm9#_35PHD2br1]
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Old 11-27-2015, 11:55 PM   #4961
squintster
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Re: CardRunnersEV

I figured out what I was doing wrong in the above problem, thank you. Next question...

Assuming I've got equilibrium reached for both players. And I decide to lock in conditions for the solver to ignore or change and run again. And seeing this I want to have the other player max exploit vs new strategy with conditions I've locked in. Do I just hit the max exploit bu or do I need to lock ranges etc on either player? image below



I want to have co max exploit vs bu's now edited range and solver results.
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Old 11-28-2015, 07:57 AM   #4962
pokoteng
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Hello Scylla,



I like the trial run function. But in many cases I would like to have a trial run for a specific hand/turn/river (ex: I might want to know what would happen when As4s versus KsQc). That would be very convenient.



Cheers,

Pokoteng
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Old 11-28-2015, 01:02 PM   #4963
scylla
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokoteng View Post
Hello Scylla,



I like the trial run function. But in many cases I would like to have a trial run for a specific hand/turn/river (ex: I might want to know what would happen when As4s versus KsQc). That would be very convenient.



Cheers,

Pokoteng
Ok, thank you for the suggestion!
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Old 11-28-2015, 01:04 PM   #4964
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by squintster View Post
I figured out what I was doing wrong in the above problem, thank you. Next question...

Assuming I've got equilibrium reached for both players. And I decide to lock in conditions for the solver to ignore or change and run again. And seeing this I want to have the other player max exploit vs new strategy with conditions I've locked in. Do I just hit the max exploit bu or do I need to lock ranges etc on either player? image below



I want to have co max exploit vs bu's now edited range and solver results.
At the moment the Max Exploit tool only works on known boards and ignores locks. So right at this moment this is not yet possible. This will be available in future versions though.
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Old 11-29-2015, 04:41 AM   #4965
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Re: CardRunnersEV

I'm running 3 man simulations and recently used 100 millions simulations to get close enough values, but it takes ages for my computer to run it. Is there any enough number of simulations to get a decent result? With 2 players even 100 million sim wont give you the same numbers as the math engine, so how much for example 50 mil skew your results?
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Old 11-29-2015, 12:45 PM   #4966
scylla
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnest View Post
I'm running 3 man simulations and recently used 100 millions simulations to get close enough values, but it takes ages for my computer to run it. Is there any enough number of simulations to get a decent result? With 2 players even 100 million sim wont give you the same numbers as the math engine, so how much for example 50 mil skew your results?
Could you send a savefile to support please?
I'll see if there's something to be done here.

Last edited by scylla; 11-29-2015 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 11-30-2015, 08:26 PM   #4967
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Any way to copy a custom range that was produced by equilibrium solver?
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Old 12-01-2015, 12:41 AM   #4968
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Interpreting data

Scenario: hero wants to know which option will yield more EV, 3b jamming ai preflop or raising to 9k and shoving any flop. I've created the tree below and shows in preflop the EV of raising to 9k or shoving pre as about the same (6k), but on random flop jamming the hand (AQo) vs villains wide call range has an ev of 14k. So from a pure EV perspective, which option would make the most money vs this villain? If the ev for hero is 14k on flop but we've invested 9k preflop, does it mean this option only yields 5k?

Quote:
[CardRunnersEV v3.1.6]
[This text block contains settings for CardRunnersEV]
[Use Ctrl+P to import into CardRunnersEV]
[www.cardrunnersev.com]
[aBAB7D2QHM_uQQhpuH!ALU-6FML!NxFonx+ZmgV_@fXgqAeSiKAVyxiFDxgLx$M20k$mWF]
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[,ECCu.,sxsd,Do!,wkFe,UCrm,x$?Q,-Riy,zb6l,tn3,Nnd0,bTX5,G6lf,WhW4,0eeP,]
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Old 12-01-2015, 05:39 AM   #4969
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by squintster View Post
Any way to copy a custom range that was produced by equilibrium solver?
You'll need to be a bit more specific as to what you mean by copying a range. Do you mean copy from one tree to another tree? Or copy within a tree? Or get the percentages of individual hands? Or maybe something else?
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Old 12-01-2015, 05:41 AM   #4970
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by squintster View Post
Interpreting data

Scenario: hero wants to know which option will yield more EV, 3b jamming ai preflop or raising to 9k and shoving any flop. I've created the tree below and shows in preflop the EV of raising to 9k or shoving pre as about the same (6k), but on random flop jamming the hand (AQo) vs villains wide call range has an ev of 14k. So from a pure EV perspective, which option would make the most money vs this villain? If the ev for hero is 14k on flop but we've invested 9k preflop, does it mean this option only yields 5k?



This savefile does not appear to import for me.
Please put it between [ code ] [ / code ] brackets.

Right now you're putting it between [ quote ] [ / quote ] brackets.
When these brackets are used, the forum editor will alter the contents of the field.
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Old 12-01-2015, 12:58 PM   #4971
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Re: CardRunnersEV

sorry about that.



Code:
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[Use Ctrl+I to import into CardRunnersEV]
[www.cardrunnersev.com]
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Old 12-01-2015, 12:59 PM   #4972
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by scylla View Post
You'll need to be a bit more specific as to what you mean by copying a range. Do you mean copy from one tree to another tree? Or copy within a tree? Or get the percentages of individual hands? Or maybe something else?
Yes, I'd like to be able to run the solver and copy that range and use in another tree or just see overall % of the range. Is it possible?
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Old 12-01-2015, 04:02 PM   #4973
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by squintster View Post
Scenario: hero wants to know which option will yield more EV, 3b jamming ai preflop or raising to 9k and shoving any flop. I've created the tree below and shows in preflop the EV of raising to 9k or shoving pre as about the same (6k), but on random flop jamming the hand (AQo) vs villains wide call range has an ev of 14k. So from a pure EV perspective, which option would make the most money vs this villain?
Raising is the better option because it has an EV of slightly over 6k, while calling has an EV of slightly under 6k. So the EV to look at here is the preflop EV for "Raise 9000". All future actions are included in its calculation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by squintster View Post
If the ev for hero is 14k on flop but we've invested 9k preflop, does it mean this option only yields 5k?
The EV for hero on the flop is rougly 15k. Given that he's raising 9k preflop while having already posted 1.2k, he's investing 7.8k preflop. However, in 73% of the cases this will lead to Cutoff folding, in which case BB will win the pot of 6150. In the remaining 27% where Cutoff calls BB's flop EV of ~15k will indeed need to be discounted for the investment of 7.8k.

This makes the EV for raising to 9k preflop:

EV = 73% * 6150 + 27% * (15000 - 7800) = 6400.
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Old 12-01-2015, 04:11 PM   #4974
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by squintster View Post
Yes, I'd like to be able to run the solver and copy that range and use in another tree
I can't say that I've added any copy paste features for this, due to the ranges that come out of the solver only applying to the one particular spot they were calculated for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by squintster View Post
... or just see overall % of the range.
Can you specify in more detail what you mean by "overall % of the range"?
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Old 12-01-2015, 06:03 PM   #4975
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Re: CardRunnersEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by scylla View Post
Raising is the better option because it has an EV of slightly over 6k, while calling has an EV of slightly under 6k. So the EV to look at here is the preflop EV for "Raise 9000". All future actions are included in its calculation.




The EV for hero on the flop is rougly 15k. Given that he's raising 9k preflop while having already posted 1.2k, he's investing 7.8k preflop. However, in 73% of the cases this will lead to Cutoff folding, in which case BB will win the pot of 6150. In the remaining 27% where Cutoff calls BB's flop EV of ~15k will indeed need to be discounted for the investment of 7.8k.

This makes the EV for raising to 9k preflop:

EV = 73% * 6150 + 27% * (15000 - 7800) = 6400.
So we would conclude that the EV of raising 9k and shoving any flop is going to be roughtly similar to just shoving preflop, correct? raising to 9k yielding 6400 chips and shoving preflop yielding ~6k. Thanks for clarification by the way.
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