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03-11-2013 , 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deco354
When I click the Unexploitable shove button a pop-up comes up that I cannot remove from the screen. I have already disabled 'Display toolbar hints but the pop-up appears and forces me to shut CREV down each time anyway.

That popup comes up when you mouse over "Merge MC and Math" when you have the option "Help->Display hints when hovering over tree" turned ON.
I notice in your screenshot that it is indeed highlighted.

The popup will almost certainly disappear when you turn the above mentioned option OFF.
However, are you saying that you always get this popup when you click on the unexploitable shove button?
And it does not disappear, even when the calc is done and you mouse over the tree again?
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03-11-2013 , 03:26 PM
If I have a board of T 5 2 , how do I specify AJ with the A ?
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03-11-2013 , 05:24 PM
Hi!

Is there a way to select the hands you want in the Postflop condition menu from a pokerstove table like the one you are using pre flop? When you working with a pretty tight range of hands it would be easier this way. It would also help to see your pre flop range when you are choosing which hands to continue with.

I am using the beta version if that matters.
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03-11-2013 , 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imrahil
If I have a board of T 5 2 , how do I specify AJ with the A ?
I can think of two ways of doing that.
See the savefile here.
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03-11-2013 , 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MNHBK
Hi!

Is there a way to select the hands you want in the Postflop condition menu from a pokerstove table like the one you are using pre flop? When you working with a pretty tight range of hands it would be easier this way. It would also help to see your pre flop range when you are choosing which hands to continue with.

I am using the beta version if that matters.
I removed that for the beta, but I'll see if I can reďntroduce it.
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03-11-2013 , 05:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scylla
I can think of two ways of doing that.
See the savefile here.
Great! Thanks a lot!
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03-11-2013 , 10:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scylla
However, are you saying that you always get this popup when you click on the unexploitable shove button?
And it does not disappear, even when the calc is done and you mouse over the tree again?
This pop-up has blocked me three times in a row using the same save file, it doesn't happen everytime I've used it since with no problems. When it has it would not disappear no matter what I did, the latter two times the option for toolbar pop-ups had been disabled. The calculation was never made when this happened.
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03-11-2013 , 10:30 PM
Another issue I've had with the unexploitable shove feature is this odd result I got for unexploitable 4bet shoving which can't possibly be correct. (44 is a fine shove 99 is not).

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03-12-2013 , 12:49 AM
I would guess 55-99 are blocking his bluffs more. I see he is 3betting 55-99 himself so if he ends up folding those to a jam (as well as some of the Axs that gets blocked by those hands but not 44) that could be right. Would need to be able to see his entire 3bet range and his calling range to be sure but most likely some sort of card removal effect imo.
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03-12-2013 , 07:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mperich
I would guess 55-99 are blocking his bluffs more. I see he is 3betting 55-99 himself so if he ends up folding those to a jam (as well as some of the Axs that gets blocked by those hands but not 44) that could be right. Would need to be able to see his entire 3bet range and his calling range to be sure but most likely some sort of card removal effect imo.
Given that villain's range is AA-55, it's indeed almost certainly a card removal effect. You're welcome to send a savefile though, so I can take a look.
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03-12-2013 , 07:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deco354
This pop-up has blocked me three times in a row using the same save file, it doesn't happen everytime I've used it since with no problems. When it has it would not disappear no matter what I did, the latter two times the option for toolbar pop-ups had been disabled. The calculation was never made when this happened.
Does it júst happen for that one savefile?
If so, please send me the savefile.

Also, does the popup disappear when you turn off "Help->Display hints when hovering over tree"?
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03-13-2013 , 07:51 AM
Is it possible use GPU for simulations? Have high end graphic card, but really not using it, maybe its somehow possible?
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03-13-2013 , 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by obviousTROLL
Is it possible use GPU for simulations? Have high end graphic card, but really not using it, maybe its somehow possible?
No, I doubt that that is possible.
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03-13-2013 , 06:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imrahil
If I have a board of T 5 2 , how do I specify AJ with the A ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by scylla
I can think of two ways of doing that.
See the savefile here.
could you add a one holecard backdoor nut flush draw filter in addition to the bd fd (using one holecard) filter to automate selections like this?
one holecard backdoor flush draws that make the nut flushdraw are way different than random other backdoor flushdraws using one holecard.
for bd fd using both holecards this distinction is less important but would still be nice.


another addition i would like to see is an option to display ev of actions that arent taken for comparrisons sake.
this is important when i want to decide whether to bet or check with different parts of my range. currently this is only possible when weighting parts that i want to bet 100% at 99% (to still see what the ev would be in case i checked). parts that i want to check have to be weighted at 1% to see what their ev would be if bet.
on the one hand this is a pain to change in cases where the range is split up into many different hand strengths and it also distorts the ev of the other playerbe cause the ranges in the simulation arent bet exactly as often as i would want them to be in reality.

Last edited by ExaMeter; 03-13-2013 at 06:16 PM.
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03-14-2013 , 08:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExaMeter
could you add a one holecard backdoor nut flush draw filter in addition to the bd fd (using one holecard) filter to automate selections like this?
one holecard backdoor flush draws that make the nut flushdraw are way different than random other backdoor flushdraws using one holecard.
for bd fd using both holecards this distinction is less important but would still be nice.
Yes, there seems to be space available for that.
I'll add it for the next release.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExaMeter
another addition i would like to see is an option to display ev of actions that arent taken for comparrisons sake.
this is important when i want to decide whether to bet or check with different parts of my range. currently this is only possible when weighting parts that i want to bet 100% at 99% (to still see what the ev would be in case i checked). parts that i want to check have to be weighted at 1% to see what their ev would be if bet.
on the one hand this is a pain to change in cases where the range is split up into many different hand strengths and it also distorts the ev of the other playerbe cause the ranges in the simulation arent bet exactly as often as i would want them to be in reality.
The easiest way to accomplish this is to add both lines on top of each other and then switch between which one is on top.

I'm not really sure how I would add an option so that both lines could be run, because:
- It's going to be complicated interface-wise
- It may not be 100% clear how those lines are treated for EV calculations. It's going to be really confusing
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03-15-2013 , 01:30 AM
If I am playing a $100 tournament, ($95 to prize pool and $5 to rake) how do I calculate the rake %. Would it be 5/95 or 5/100?
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03-15-2013 , 07:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3eBjUnKiE
If I am playing a $100 tournament, ($95 to prize pool and $5 to rake) how do I calculate the rake %. Would it be 5/95 or 5/100?
The tournament calculations do not include rake (the value "rake" under Ctrl+F1 is not used in the tournament calculations).

After all, at the point that you're playing in the tournament you've already paid that rake.
It does not have any effect the way you should play a hand in any way.

As for the prize pool, you should simply enter the prize structure for the tournament there.
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03-15-2013 , 09:43 AM
If you were play $100+$5 rake games and you get your money in with 50% equity preflop first hand of every game, you would lose $5/game. How would I make up for this loss using the software? I would need to compensate by making sure that I require more equity for a play to plus ev right?
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03-15-2013 , 10:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3eBjUnKiE
If you were play $100+$5 rake games and you get your money in with 50% equity preflop first hand of every game, you would lose $5/game. How would I make up for this loss using the software? I would need to compensate by making sure that I require more equity for a play to plus ev right?
At the time that you're playing a hand in a tournament the money that you've spent on rake is no longer yours. You've already spent that at an earlier point in time in order to get access to the tournament. After all, it's not as if you have the option to fold, walk away from the table and get your $5 back. You've obviously spent $5 to get into the tournament, but that loss does not occur during the hand. It's in the past.
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03-15-2013 , 03:47 PM
When I click on custom ranges a box comes up with 3 default custom ranges, and I can store and delte new ranges, but how can I chose a name for a custom range?
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03-15-2013 , 05:48 PM
Oh I see now. Thanks for the explanation.
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03-16-2013 , 08:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyg2001
When I click on custom ranges a box comes up with 3 default custom ranges, and I can store and delte new ranges, but how can I chose a name for a custom range?
You can set the name when you save it.
If you want to change the name/range/other, just load it, edit it, and save it again. You can delete the old range by selecting it and pressing Del. To move the new range to the desired position, just drag and drop it.

I realize that this method is not ideal, but the custom ranges are something you most likely only set once. I decided to keep the editing options limited.
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03-17-2013 , 05:54 PM
I am wondering if it would be possible for the 'top x%' function to work in intervals, to create nonlinear ranges.

for example, on the river, SB vs. BTN with 1 PSB remaining.

SB would like to use this strategy (I'm using arbitrary %s for clarity):
- Shove the top 25% of hands
- Check the top 20% of the remaining range (or of the entire range--it doesn't matter)
- Shove the next 20%
- Check the rest

I can do this right now, however it needs to be done in 4 ranges and the results come out wrong. Instead, we'd need 1 betting range consisting of the 1st and 3rd bullet points above. Likewise, the checking range would need to be the 2nd and 4th bullet points above.

The trouble I'm having is that crEV is great for solving optimal strategies with linear ranges. Unfortunately, many times we want to have nonlinear ranges.

Another such example is if we're in position on the river with 1 PSB remaining. We almost certainly don't want to bet the top x% of our range and check all else. We probably want to bet the top x%, check the next y%, and then bluff z% that have the best blockers (highest EV), and check/give up with the final w%.

is any of this feasible right now?

Last edited by sthief09; 03-17-2013 at 06:05 PM.
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03-17-2013 , 06:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sthief09
I am wondering if it would be possible for the 'top x%' function to work in intervals, to create nonlinear ranges.

for example, on the river, SB vs. BTN with 1 PSB remaining.

SB would like to use this strategy (I'm using arbitrary %s for clarity):
- Shove the top 25% of hands
- Check the top 20% of the remaining range (or of the entire range--it doesn't matter)
- Shove the next 20%
- Check the rest

I can do this right now, however it needs to be done in 4 ranges and the results come out wrong. Instead, we'd need 1 betting range consisting of the 1st and 3rd bullet points above. Likewise, the checking range would need to be the 2nd and 4th bullet points above.
Well, I can think of an ugly way of doing this ...
www.cardrunnersev.com/savefiles/ranges.rar

This will make SB bet with the top 25% as well as the [45,60]% domain and check with the rest. For both bet lines the subtrees are identical. Same goes for both check lines.

It's definitely not pretty, but it accomplishes what you're asking for.

I suppose your issue would be solved if a command Top%(Location,Value,Value,Mode,Mode) were added? So that Value,Value allowed for a domain instead of a top%?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sthief09
Another such example is if we're in position on the river with 1 PSB remaining. We almost certainly don't want to bet the top x% of our range and check all else. We probably want to bet the top x%, check the next y%, and then bluff z% that have the best blockers (highest EV), and check/give up with the final w%.
Well, fwiw, it sounds like the unexploitable shoving feature would be capable of doing this for you. If you're in position on the river (and checked to) it will calculate a top% and bottom% shoving range, while the intermediate hands are checked behind.

Now, this is not exáctly what you're asking for, however, I don't think you should be shoving you're second-to-worst hands in this spot while checking your worst ones anyhow. You should be bluffing your worst ones and checking the ones that have at least some showdown value. If I had a choice between bluffing Q high or 5 high in that spot, I'd bluf 5 high and check Q high.


PS: I've just checked, and in the new unexploitable shoving algorithm, the fact that the shoving range is a top% and a bottom% is not made clear to the user. I think I'll separate the shoving range into a top% and bottom% again for future versions.

Last edited by scylla; 03-17-2013 at 06:33 PM.
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03-17-2013 , 07:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scylla
Well, I can think of an ugly way of doing this ...
www.cardrunnersev.com/savefiles/ranges.rar

This will make SB bet with the top 25% as well as the [45,60]% domain and check with the rest. For both bet lines the subtrees are identical. Same goes for both check lines.
I thought of this as well. I ran an experiment to see if this would work for trying to find an equilibrium. First I ran a simple unexpoitable shove. I then took that range and split it into 2 shoving ranges. For each, I set calling range to all hands and then deleted -EV hands. the EV of the 2 shoving ranges was lower than the 1 range. so, I think the best possible SB strategy for this tree would undershoot the true EV of the best strategy and it might not yield the best result.



Quote:
I suppose your issue would be solved if a command Top%(Location,Value,Value,Mode,Mode) were added? So that Value,Value allowed for a domain instead of a top%?
This is what I had in mind. I think that sort of thing would be hugely valuable.


Quote:
Well, fwiw, it sounds like the unexploitable shoving feature would be capable of doing this for you. If you're in position on the river (and checked to) it will calculate a top% and bottom% shoving range, while the intermediate hands are checked behind.

Now, this is not exáctly what you're asking for, however, I don't think you should be shoving you're second-to-worst hands in this spot while checking your worst ones anyhow. You should be bluffing your worst ones and checking the ones that have at least some showdown value. If I had a choice between bluffing Q high or 5 high in that spot, I'd bluf 5 high and check Q high.


PS: I've just checked, and in the new unexploitable shoving algorithm, the fact that the shoving range is a top% and a bottom% is not made clear to the user. I think I'll separate the shoving range into a top% and bottom% again for future versions.

good point. I forgot that the unexploitable shove in position allows for checking. So you're exactly right that it solves this situation.

thanks for the quick response for for putting together the tree.
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