Hi Red Shell,

Unexploitable shoving only works heads up.
This is because it needs the Math engine.

Other than that, unexploitable shoving dóes take stacksizes into account and it also works with tournaments.

When dealing with tournaments though it is important to keep in mind that if villain calls the all in too loose this does not work in your favour. In most cases it means that both you and villain lose money over his call while it's the other players that profit.
Go ahead and try out some push and call situations and see what happens with the EVs when villain calls looser than he should.

Cheers,

Scylla

I was analyzing a heads-up situation pre-flop and I noticed that SB/BTN folding doesn't count towards BB's EV, so if SB is playing 100% of his hands then the total equity of the game is 15, but if he folds half of them it's only 12.5 (this is at a 5/10 blind game). Should this really work like this? I can't see any troubles that would arise from counting the dead money folded by SB as part of BB's EV and it would help overall analysis of pre-flop strategies immensly.

Hi Kotkis,

Yes it should.
The EV in StoxEV is defined as the EV at the point of a decision.
At the particular decision point you're talking about the SB has already folded and the BB has won that money in the fold branch of the tree.
It's just not shown because there was no decision in that branch for the BB to make so I can't display that EV for him.

I could change the code so that it would do what you're describing here, but then other people may start coming to really weird decisions for the BB because extra money is added to his EV and they're not aware of it.
It would also become more difficult to work out correct decisions for the BB at his first decisionpoint because you don't know the EV of this decision.

I could of course add an option to either turn this on or off, but that would lead to people not being aware the option is on/off/exists and other problems would arise.

I'll give it some thought though. Maybe I can come up with a solution for this. Or perhaps you have a suggestion?

Cheers,

Scylla

Hi scylla,

I used the QQvsFlushdrawBlockBet example to learn the basics and I noticed something weird. How can the 99 call on the 544 flop can be EV+ whereas the other player holds QQ ?

You said "The EV in StoxEV is defined as the EV at the point of a decision." so I am really confused because the flop call with 99 shouldn't take into account the turn card (which is a nine).

Zejj

ps: keep up the good work

The board as it is given is considered to be known at all points.
This is because if you've entered a board up to the turn I can't imagine any scenario where you're trying to figure out the EV for a flop decision.
The EVs prior to the phase of the board are simply shown because ... well, i have that data.
I don't think there's any practical use for displaying it though.

Actually it wouldn't be that bad as it is, but I just noticed that part of what I said was wrong. When SB opens 100% the total value of the game is $15, but when SB only opens 50% then the total value of the game changes wildly based on the what I've set up to happen with the rest of the game.

For example here:



the combined value for both players comes out as 10.75, but the total value of the game is 10.75 + 7.5*0.5, so we get 14.5 which is less than 15. This was just a very simplistic example, and the results vary even more when I change BB's strategy to something more complex. Maybe it's supposed to work this way, but now there is no way for me to account for what happens for the $7.5 that gets folded half the time.

First of all, should there be any unclearity about this, the EVs that are calculated are the correct EVs for each decision. I just checked manually.

However, of course, this is not the issue. You want to know the EV for the sb's strategy and the EV for the bb's strategy.

This is actually trivially easy in the absence of rake. Some calculations (below in white) show that the EV for the sb's strategy is $4.185 and the EV for the bb's strategy is $10.815.

So why is it trivial?
The ev for the sb's strategy is already as you want it, it is displayed as $4.22 (the 4 cent discrepancy is due to the the fact that the sb's range is 49.9% instead of 50% and because of rounding errors).

The total EV, as you point out must be $15, so the bb's strategy is $15-$4.185=$10.815.
To get the true EV for the strategy you still need to deduct the blinds that each player posts.
So the sb's strategy would therefore be $4.185-$5=-$0.815 and the bb's strategy is $10.815-$10=$0.815.

I'll see what I can do to provide these numbers in case a user is interested in strategy EV instead of decision EV. I should be able to display them to the right of the "tool tips" button.
There's some space left there.

Here's the math:

In 50% of the cases the small blind and big blind will play for the $15 pot where the SB has 55.8% equity and the big blind has 44.2% equity.

The EV for this situation is:
EV sb: 50%*($15*0.558)=$4.185
EV bb: 50%*($15*0.442)=$3.315


In the other 50% the big blind wins the $15 pot:
EV bb: 50%*$15=$7.5

This adds up to a total EV for the bb of $3.315+$7.5=$10.815.

kotkis,
It might be the rake.

I've been fiddling around with this program for a few days now, its AWESOME!

I have two requests. The first is an option for the posted blind to be considered as part of the blinds stack. Meaning if he posted it and doesn't defend it, it would count as a lose and not neutral EV. I realize that in reality this is not the case, but it would greatly simply a lot of blind steal and defense situations for me. Because in reality he would rather not have to post and lose it, and the less times he doesn't (lose it) the better over the long run. I don't think this program expresses that at well as it should. But that could be because I'm admittedly bad at math and probability. A huge part of why i love this program so much is because it does so much math for me!

The second is the ability to save individually weighted hand ranges. For instance if i wanted to save a whole range where i'm calling with aces 25%, kings 20%, queens 10%, AK 5%, jacks 5%, AQ 50%, etc. To my knowledge that is not possible. I can save that whole range, but i can then only assign weight to the whole range and not the individual hands in the range. And if create a range using individual hands, i can then individually weight them, but can't save them as a group for later use. Probably the best solution would be the ability to save an entire group of conditions together, instead of only being able to save them individually.

I greatly appreciate all the hard work you have put into this program! Thanks!

Oops, forgot something.
When I wrote post 407 last night it was 4 am over here and I could hardly keep my eyes open.
You cán very easily get the sb's and bb's strategy EVs from the decision EVs displayed in the tree.

The sb is already the one displayed.

The one for the BB is: 49.9%*$6.53+50.1%*$15=$10.77.

You still need to deduct the blinds of course.

I'm trying to add strategy EV for the next version.
If I can find the time ...
The tables have been ... AMAZING the past few days.
If this keeps up I won't have time for programming until they quiet down again.

Given the current approach to storing conditions this is rather hard to achieve in a clear and easy to use way (that doesn't cost me days desiging a new menu), but I certainly see your point.
Let me see if I can think up an elegant and easy to program solution.

Hmm yeah I think I get it now. I still think that having the option for getting the EV for the strategies would be a good feature, but I suppose I can manage without it if it causes unneccessary confusion. Thanks for the replies.

Ok, I just added strategy EV to 2.1.4.

It will display the EV of a strategy to the right of the "tool tips" button if:
- it's sb vs bb
- the action starts preflop

Should be out before the end of the month.

Can't wait to try it. What about the other positions vs blinds?

There's no situation I can think of where that would apply.
If you are the cutoff in a six-handed game it would be micromanagement to be interested in the EV of your strategy if the bb calls.
Or vice versa, if you are the bb and you want to know your EV against button raises prior to you posting the blind.

Strategy EV, as far as I can think of, only applies heads up.
It doesn't even really apply to situations where every folds to you in the sb.
It's just too rare of an event to be asking "should I even post the sb in this game? what if everybody folds to me, what is my strategy ev?".
In situations with more than 2 players only the EV of your decisions is relevant.

Hi guys,

I've just put 2.1.4 online. Unfortunately it again requires you to uninstall your previous version. I'm still trying to work out some of the kinks in auto-updates, hopefully, everything will be automated soon.

New in 2.1.4

Suits in popups
Option to toggle to combos in popups
Option to display strategy EV for heads up games

Cheers,

Scylla

Great adds, thanks scylla. Also, I second the earlier poster encouraging you to accept donations.

Totally sweet!!! Have you posted your screen name on any sites for donations? I'd be really happy to contribute.

-Bill

I've added a donation button in the main screen.
It points to this page: http://www.stoxev.com/contribute.htm.

Cheers,

Scylla

I was going to try this but before downloading I decided to ask pokerstars if this program is ok with them... Here's their answer:

I guess they didn't really bother to check it

I just downloaded the newest version and the $EV is not showing up. I have used the program before and never had this problem. Can somebody let me know why this is?

Could you please elaborate on what you mean by $EV?

Is there a way to automate inverting the ranges. For example if I want my opponent to call with 95% of his range, can the software assume that he folds the other 5%. It's such a pain in the ass having to copy, paste, and hit invert each time I change a range.

I can't believe I just found this, awesome work scylla I had been doing all these EV trees by hand up till now

I just realized that maybe you meant the EV part below decisions is no longer drawn.

Go to the "Extra" menu. You can turn on/off whether or not you want certain things drawn. Standard setting is that everything is turned on.