GTO GTO+/CardRunnersEV? - Page 54 - Poker Software -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

I have a question regarding a very weird outcome of a simulation:

Both times 100bb stacks, both times 23.5bb 4bets.

(1) Villain opens, I 3bet AKo, villain 4bets with a range of TT+,AK, I jam, villain calls.
My jamEV (when facing the 4bet) is -9.215bb

(2) Villain opens, I 3b AKo, villain 4bets TT+,AK, I call preflop. I openjam any flop blind, and have villain call perfectly (the alt+d filter). This results in him calling ~75% of the time (folding TT-QQ (KK) on K (A) high flops, obviously).

The EV of calling the 4b preflop and jamming any flop blindly and having him call perfectly is ~ -1bb.

How can this be possible? In the first scenario I get the money in preflop and he can't fold TT on an A high board obviously, so I either win or lose a stack vs TT depending on the board.

In the second scenario I lose the same amount of money when I don't hit (my stack), but when I hit a good flop for me TT will fold (A73r), so clearly my EV on calling preflop and jamming any flop but letting him fold some flops should be worse than -9bb. Yet cardrunnersEV tells me my EV is better

What is going on? What (if I'm correct) is the bug and how can I circumvent it?

I can send you the cardrunnersEV files if you want, but it should be very easy to reproduce

Hi Kaby,

The Alt+D option removes -EV hands after the entire EV run as a whole. It is not done dynamically for every flop. For that reason, the simulation appears to do something else than you think it does. The Alt+D filter does not have much use on unknown flops. To accomplish what you're trying do do, you'll probably want to make SB call the push with something like: overpair, oesd, J high board and run the simulation for that.

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09-27-2010 , 09:56 AM

#1328

kaby

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6,230

is there any way to make alt+d work on unknown flops in the future? i know quite a few people who would happily wait through the longer calculation times for the ability to do range vs range analysis in big pots

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09-27-2010 , 09:58 AM

#1329

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,353

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaby

I'll think about it, but it's not easy.
Also, you'll have no idea what's going on in the calculation, only that villain plays perfectly.
I think in the end this feature would not add much to your learning curve since it's too much of a black box.
Personally, I think it's better to just define the calling range in terms of >=overpair, >=tp+fd, etc.

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09-27-2010 , 10:24 AM

#1330

kaby

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6,230

the problem with that is that AK is a much much stronger hand on 832r than it is on J97fd in a 4b pot, same argument for K3 and 96 on both flops (both second pair), so on some flops AK/mid pair should be snapfolding to a frontjam and on others snapcalling even though it's twice AK high/mid pair

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09-30-2010 , 07:29 PM

#1331

ProsperousOne

journeyman

Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 378

Suggestion: Can you add the capability to rename the positions, and import screen names also? (ie UTG ==> Hero or Bob123)

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10-01-2010 , 04:03 PM

#1332

DorianGray13

newbie

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 23

Hello
I have the last version of the program and i don't find the stop button in the action menu like in one the tutorial video.
How can i use this function?

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10-01-2010 , 06:59 PM

#1333

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,353

Quote:

Originally Posted by DorianGray13

Hello
I have the last version of the program and i don't find the stop button in the action menu like in one the tutorial video.
How can i use this function?

It has been replaced by a checkdown.
If you want to use the stop function, just select checkdown and set the checkdown % for the player that you want to "stop" to 0%. He will now get 0% of his equity in the pot (or in other words, nothing). His share of the pot is distributed among the remaining player(s).

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10-01-2010 , 07:04 PM

#1334

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,353

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProsperousOne

Suggestion: Can you add the capability to rename the positions, and import screen names also? (ie UTG ==> Hero or Bob123)

I've considered it before, but decided against it. It's mainly an interface decision, since it would be yet another option in the menu or in the trees themselves. Every time I add something, the learning curve for new users goes flatter. That's of course not to say I don't add things. I've recently added multi-conditions and an ability to define overcards to the flop/turn. Anyhow, the ability to rename players is unfortunately not going to make the cut.

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10-01-2010 , 07:08 PM

#1335

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,353

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaby

I'm not sure if I agree with snapcalling with AK overcards, but we of course may be thinking about different opponents. Anyhow, once again, the alternative here is to offer a black box feature where the user doesn't know what is done with which hand. I prefer a slight inability to define strategies on unknown flops to not knowing what strategy is being used at all.

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10-15-2010 , 04:06 PM

#1336

mperich

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 4,212

Hey,

Great program. I may be missing it but is there some way to copy a range @ a specific point to text? Say if villain calls allin on the flop w/ TP+FD, TPTK+, NFD...I hover over and can see the holecards and combos...any way to copy that range to a stove type syntax?

-Mike

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10-15-2010 , 04:21 PM

#1337

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,353

Quote:

Originally Posted by mperich

In the registered version you can press Alt+O when there's a popup on the screen to bring up a dialog with the text version. However, unfortunately pokerstove can not accept the entire description of the contents in postflop popups if suits are included in the description. For this reason the string that is provided can only contain details such as AKs instead of AcKc. I've tried writing it in such a way that all suits were included but alas, the strings became too large for pokerstove to accept.

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10-15-2010 , 04:27 PM

#1338

mperich

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 4,212

Ah great Id seen the excel output before but forgot the range was at the top. Cheers,

-Mike

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10-15-2010 , 10:49 PM

#1339

Googs

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 442

Quote:

Originally Posted by scylla

Ok, great.
The multi-condition feature is brand new, so it's not entirely surprising that there's a bug in it.
I haven't checked yet, but the / in the name is very likely to be the cause of the crash.
I'll check it in a while and add some protection against adding "weird" characters in the name.

Hey scylla,

just letting you know I am getting the same problems when trying the multi-condition. I'll obviously try to fix it as he's done but I wonder if something may be up there. Awesome program of course.

Edit: I don't have any names with a "/" and after deleting all my names it now works again. My names had capitol letters but that's basically all I noticed differently from the default conditions. Not sure what's wrong there.

Last edited by Googs; 10-15-2010 at 10:55 PM.

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10-15-2010 , 10:50 PM

#1340

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,353

Quote:

Originally Posted by Googs

Yeah the problem is that I"m not checking for symbols such as '/'.
It's fixed in the next release.

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10-16-2010 , 02:06 AM

#1341

Googs

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 442

Thanks. I don't think I worded my edit correctly but basically even when I didn't have a '/' in the name it still froze. Just letting you know that maybe it's more than what's in the name.

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10-16-2010 , 06:04 AM

#1342

Aussie66

stranger

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2

In the Holecard Range popup is it possible to rename custom ranges? And what is the maximum number of custom ranges, please?

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10-16-2010 , 12:14 PM

#1343

Abelian

adept

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,069

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aussie66

In the Holecard Range popup is it possible to rename custom ranges? And what is the maximum number of custom ranges, please?

Yes. Click on "all hands" in the upper left. Type in the name you want for the range and click "store" in the upper right (where you see premium hands and small pp).

I am not sure what the max number of range names you can have is, however.

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10-16-2010 , 04:04 PM

#1344

mperich

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 4,212

Hey Scylla,

I have been using slice by ev++ lately instead of pokerstove and it seems it can accept long strings as input. I just tested a range I got from a 0%-minus EV condition that was ~850 combos long (I pasted it here but it made a pretty big eyesore

and it was handled with no problem. Any chance on being able to get the full list of combos listed in the future? Thanks,

-Mike

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10-16-2010 , 09:11 PM

#1345

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,353

Quote:

Originally Posted by mperich

and it was handled with no problem. Any chance on being able to get the full list of combos listed in the future? Thanks,

-Mike

I should be able to do that.
I just hope I haven't deleted the part of the code that generated it in that form.

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10-16-2010 , 09:12 PM

#1346

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,353

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abelian

To the best of my recollection there is no maximum for this.
Whenever a column is full a new one is created.

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10-16-2010 , 09:17 PM

#1347

scylla

GTO+ Representative

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 7,353

Quote:

Originally Posted by Googs

Thanks. I don't think I worded my edit correctly but basically even when I didn't have a '/' in the name it still froze. Just letting you know that maybe it's more than what's in the name.

Ok, does it freeze when storing a new multi-condition or at some point in the loading process? In any case, could you zip the "conditions" directory and mail is to me if it occurs again? I should be able to walk through the process step by step and figure out what's causing the crash.