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06-25-2011, 05:32 AM   #76
rowhousepd
grinder

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 593
Re: Ace Poker Drills: Equity Trainer / Pre-Flop Trainer / Odds & Outs and Equity Calculator

Quote:
Should have been more clear. In the equity trainer, after you say how many outs you have, it would be nice if it asked what you're odds of improving were. So you have a 9 out flush draw on the flop, the next question would be what you're odd are (which would be ~4.1), then the next questions would be the percentage question.

I personally have always thought in terms of ratios and do most of the math (albeit simple and a bit slow) at the table that way. I find it especially useful easy to compare to the pot odds.

Last edited by rowhousepd; 06-25-2011 at 06:00 AM.

06-25-2011, 03:47 PM   #77
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Making great poker HUDs
Posts: 9,657
Re: Ace Poker Drills: Equity Trainer / Pre-Flop Trainer / Odds & Outs and Equity Calculator

Quote:
 Originally Posted by rowhousepd Should have been more clear. In the equity trainer, after you say how many outs you have, it would be nice if it asked what you're odds of improving were. So you have a 9 out flush draw on the flop, the next question would be what you're odd are (which would be ~4.1), then the next questions would be the percentage question. I personally have always thought in terms of ratios and do most of the math (albeit simple and a bit slow) at the table that way. I find it especially useful easy to compare to the pot odds.
Understood. We will add an option at some point soon to a) not have to approximate odds after counting outs b) Show the odds in ratio or percentage format.

 06-26-2011, 11:07 AM #78 MKR journeyman   Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 242 Re: Ace Poker Drills: Counting Outs is this right? In the odds and out program Poker Drills has the following problem and solution: Board: Qs8dTc Hero: 9h8s Opponent: QdJh Outs: 6.5 Odds: 26 I think this is wrong. The programs counts 5 outs for two 8s and three Js and 1.5 outs for the back door straight draw to 89T. (It counts 1.5 outs when there are no gaps, 1 out with one gap and .5 outs with two gaps.) The back door outs are overstated, because it counts improvements that result from hitting a J twice. The backdoor straight comes in only when you 67. Any time you hit a J your gut shot comes in. It looks to me therefore that there are only .5 back door outs. Is this reasoning correct?
 06-26-2011, 11:15 AM #79 MKR journeyman   Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 242 Re: Ace Poker Drills: Equity Trainer / Pre-Flop Trainer / Odds & Outs and Equity Calculator Another question: Board: AhTs7c Hero: 4h5d Opponent: Ac5c Outs: 0.5 Odds: 2 The software gives 23 as .5 outs. Shouldn't 68 also count?
 06-27-2011, 02:28 AM #80 BenR grinder     Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 506 Re: Ace Poker Drills: Equity Trainer / Pre-Flop Trainer / Odds & Outs and Equity Calculator Any way of running this program on a Mac?
06-27-2011, 06:46 PM   #81
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Making great poker HUDs
Posts: 9,657
Re: Ace Poker Drills: Equity Trainer / Pre-Flop Trainer / Odds & Outs and Equity Calculator

Quote:
 Originally Posted by MKR Another question: Board: AhTs7c Hero: 4h5d Opponent: Ac5c Outs: 0.5 Odds: 2 The software gives 23 as .5 outs. Shouldn't 68 also count?
Not sure what version you have, but this was fixed last week. Thanks though. Maybe try a manual update since it doesn't always check for updates. If you find something else though, just let us know, or PM me.

06-27-2011, 06:46 PM   #82
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Making great poker HUDs
Posts: 9,657
Re: Ace Poker Drills: Equity Trainer / Pre-Flop Trainer / Odds & Outs and Equity Calculator

Quote:
 Originally Posted by BenR Any way of running this program on a Mac?
On parallels.

 07-07-2011, 01:14 AM #83 Ronin222 newbie   Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 42 Re: Ace Poker Drills: Equity Trainer / Pre-Flop Trainer / Odds & Outs and Equity Calculator The equity trainer pre-flop mode. The % choices it gives to select an answer, are they based on your hands pre flop equity vs. A random hand? I am confused. It does not seem to take into account opponents action and how his range narrows if he is raising or re-raising or calling 3bets, and there by changing our equity for our hand. As an example: of 20 questions from a test I just took, five hands were AKs and no matter if my opponent called my raise or 4bet me in the example hand, my equity answer was always 66-68%. Would not that change if he's 4betting me?
 07-08-2011, 11:38 AM #84 Ronin222 newbie   Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 42 Re: Ace Poker Drills: Equity Trainer / Pre-Flop Trainer / Odds & Outs and Equity Calculator Same thing occurred in a test question where i was dealt TT and there was a raise, re-raise and fourbet. The equity for my hand stayed the same (as if it were facing just a random hand) instead of vs. my opponents seemingly strong/narrowed range based on the pre-flop raises. Can you explain this? Another question is that i tried to register for the on-line help forum but it wants to charge me for a membership. I have paid for the products and now I need to pay for help/questions? I enjoy your product but could use a little more clarity regarding these subjects. Kind regards.
07-08-2011, 06:26 PM   #85
rowhousepd
grinder

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 593
Re: Ace Poker Drills: Equity Trainer / Pre-Flop Trainer / Odds & Outs and Equity Calculator

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ronin222 The equity trainer pre-flop mode. The % choices it gives to select an answer, are they based on your hands pre flop equity vs. A random hand? I am confused. It does not seem to take into account opponents action and how his range narrows if he is raising or re-raising or calling 3bets, and there by changing our equity for our hand. As an example: of 20 questions from a test I just took, five hands were AKs and no matter if my opponent called my raise or 4bet me in the example hand, my equity answer was always 66-68%. Would not that change if he's 4betting me?
This was exactly my question (possible complaint) about the eq trainer. There are some other posts about it in the APD forum, but I haven't heard anything back yet. Not sure where FreakDaddy went recently.

You out there somewhere? Help!

07-10-2011, 01:38 PM   #86
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Making great poker HUDs
Posts: 9,657
Re: Ace Poker Drills: Equity Trainer / Pre-Flop Trainer / Odds & Outs and Equity Calculator

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ronin222 Same thing occurred in a test question where i was dealt TT and there was a raise, re-raise and fourbet. The equity for my hand stayed the same (as if it were facing just a random hand) instead of vs. my opponents seemingly strong/narrowed range based on the pre-flop raises. Can you explain this? Another question is that i tried to register for the on-line help forum but it wants to charge me for a membership. I have paid for the products and now I need to pay for help/questions? I enjoy your product but could use a little more clarity regarding these subjects. Kind regards.
What do you mean it stats the same? What specific drill are you doing? Yes, of course the hand ranges change based on the action. I need more specifics in order to help. Perhaps try using the equity trainer on the flop, and it will help you understand how the hand ranges change more.

No, there is a free options to join the forums, just like any other forum. You have to create a username and password, etc...

 07-10-2011, 05:45 PM #87 Ronin222 newbie   Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 42 Re: Ace Poker Drills: Equity Trainer / Pre-Flop Trainer / Odds & Outs and Equity Calculator I'll be as specific as i can. Using the Ace Poker Drills Equity Trainer Program with the Drill Type set to Pre-Flop (unknown card). It seems like the equity for my hand never changes based on the pre flop betting action. So as an example, one quiz question i was given was this. I am dealt: ThTs. Opponents cards: unknown. The pre-flop betting action for this specific quiz question as dictated by the program: Blinds are \$1-2, opponent raises to \$6, I (with my TT's) 3bet to \$20 and my opponent calls. The four equity % options we are presented with to choose our answer from are: A) 73-76% B) 57-60% C)65-68% D)49-52% The quiz then says that the correct answer for this specific question/situation is 73-76%. My point to all of this is that YES ThTs vs. a random and unknown had is 73-76%. But because our opponent raised and then called our re-raise his range, based on that pre-flop betting, would more often than not be a little stronger/narrower than just a random range. If we then go ahead and strengthen/narrow his range to say 20% (pretty generous still) of hands that would raise/then call a 3Bet and run them through poker stove or another equity calculator, we see that the results change. Vs. that 20% range the Equity of my TT's drops to 59%. I have seen this in multiple examples while taking one of the pre-flop quiz's. Another example was during a 20 question quiz i was dealt AK five different times. Each time the correct answer the equity trainer
 07-10-2011, 06:29 PM #88 Ronin222 newbie   Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 42 Re: Ace Poker Drills: Equity Trainer / Pre-Flop Trainer / Odds & Outs and Equity Calculator ...Continued... Each time the correct answer the equity trainer said was 66-68%, regardless of the pre-flop betting action. One of the AK questions was I raised, opponent 3bet, I 4bet and he calls and the equity trainer still said my equity was 66-68%. Vs. That pre-flop raise war I would have to at least say the oppenets range would be 99+ AQs+ and in that case our AK equity would be around 42%. To conclude, it seems that the way the pre-flop equity trainer quiz currently works, pre-flop betting makes no differce in determining equity. If that is the case, why even have the program show the betting action? If it is just a quiz for our hand's equity vs. a random hand, is that any different than just punching in a hand on an equity calculator and pressing Random for opponent's hand? As a request in a future build for the Pre-flop quizzes, can the factor in opponents stats along with their pre-flop betting for determining equity? Thank you for taking the time to read all of this.
 07-11-2011, 01:58 PM #89 FreakDaddy Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Making great poker HUDs Posts: 9,657 Re: Ace Poker Drills: Equity Trainer / Pre-Flop Trainer / Odds & Outs and Equity Calculator Ok, thanks. I'm talking with the developer today, as something did happen with the pre-flop ranges. I checked it out yesterday. Looks like the flop, turn, and river are ok, but for some reason something must have recently occurred with the pre-flop range (not sure how or why yet). Thanks for bringing it up though, and I'll post an update soon.
 07-11-2011, 06:22 PM #90 kennabot journeyman     Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Erlanger, KY Posts: 344 Re: Ace Poker Drills: Equity Trainer / Pre-Flop Trainer / Odds & Outs and Equity Calculator Using the odds and out drills is a bit frustrating. It never discounts outs. For instance it says KdTd vs Ac9h on a 8s9s2s it says you have 10.5 outs and 42% equity which isn't even close, your actual equity is 27%. I understand it's not meant to be exactly right, but I have only used the program a few times and already stopped a few times to double check the equitites and they were not even close in some cases. In most cases they are close but even if you are very wrong 1-20 times and you just trust this program you may be getting yourself in some really bad spots in real play.
 07-11-2011, 06:28 PM #91 FreakDaddy Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Making great poker HUDs Posts: 9,657 Re: Ace Poker Drills: Equity Trainer / Pre-Flop Trainer / Odds & Outs and Equity Calculator Please watch the training video. It's not a matter of discounting outs, it's a matter of converting outs to odds using the 2/4 rule. It's meant to be used as a training tool to use at the table. Once you get beyond 9 outs using the 2/4 rule, the equity conversion becomes a bit skewed, and this is explained. You can manually adjust the equity down, because in reality, you're never going to know exactly your opponents hand correct? So you're always approximating based on a hand range (not the exact hand), and your approximated outs. This way you can get as close as you can, but you're never going to be exact in real time at the table. The point of the free tool is to get you thinking about outs, and how they approximate to odds, because even some outs are not full outs.
07-12-2011, 01:11 PM   #92
Ronin222
newbie

Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 42
Re: Ace Poker Drills: Equity Trainer / Pre-Flop Trainer / Odds & Outs and Equity Calculator

Quote:
 Originally Posted by FreakDaddy Ok, thanks. I'm talking with the developer today, as something did happen with the pre-flop ranges. I checked it out yesterday. Looks like the flop, turn, and river are ok, but for some reason something must have recently occurred with the pre-flop range (not sure how or why yet). Thanks for bringing it up though, and I'll post an update soon.

Okay. Thnk you.

 07-12-2011, 09:52 PM #93 rowhousepd grinder     Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 593 Re: Ace Poker Drills: Equity Trainer / Pre-Flop Trainer / Odds & Outs and Equity Calculator The issue Ronin222 is talking about I think applies to the equity trainer in flop mode as well. Sorry to be annoying about this, but I'm copying the question I posted about 3bet ranges in the APD forum a couple of weeks ago and didn't get an official yet. It's not the exact same scenario, but the it's related I think: Villain's stats: 24/20/3.5, 3bet = 6.2 Preflop: UTG raises, UTG+1 re-raises, Hero calls (Q Q), fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, UTG folds. Flop: 8 7 Q. UTG+1 bets.... When I click on his HUD to check what range APD has assigned him, it says { KK+, JJ, 88, A8s, K8s, 87s, A8o, 87o }. Huh?!? He 3bets 6.2 of his range, but in this case he re-raises UTG possibly w/ hands like K8s or 87o, etc. Really? Sure, maybe he leads the flop w/ any pair or a set, but why do we include very marginal hands to begin with if he only 3bets a small % of his hands? See what I mean? Hmmmm. This is just one scenario, but I've found a lot more like it where the range in the HUD just doesn't at all match the villain's 3bets range. The impact on the equity isn't going to be huge in this specific hand as I have him crushed no matter what he has, but it's a significant enough difference to change how I'd answer the question.
 07-13-2011, 06:40 PM #94 FreakDaddy Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Making great poker HUDs Posts: 9,657 Re: Ace Poker Drills: Equity Trainer / Pre-Flop Trainer / Odds & Outs and Equity Calculator APD is showing you at this particular point (action) hands that are in his 3-bet range that your opponent would leak into you with. It also discounts and removes some hands to balance for hands like K8s (because this isn't going to be 3-bet very often). However to assume it's never going to happen is a mistake. So to balance this out, some other common 3-betting hands will be removed. 6.2% doesn't mean that he's never 3-betting 87. If you take that exact scenario and punch in a range, it's going to be within the equity listed in the quiz. This is essentially the crux of the program. You are never going to know your opponents exact hand. So think in terms of how you would assign ranges and work on getting as close as possible to what your likely equity would be in that situation. If you believe the hands are off in any way, you can click on the hand range grid and add or remove hands and the equity answers will change. I can tell you though that APD is pretty accurate in assigning ranges. I've never seen anything I would say is that far off, and it wouldn't change what my primary decision would be at the table.
 07-21-2011, 08:20 PM #95 rowhousepd grinder     Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 593 Re: Ace Poker Drills: Equity Trainer / Pre-Flop Trainer / Odds & Outs and Equity Calculator APD isn't working since the recent Win 7 update. A popup says "Ace Poker Drills isn't not working. Windows is checking on a solution to the problem." What's up?
07-22-2011, 12:56 PM   #96
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Making great poker HUDs
Posts: 9,657
Re: Ace Poker Drills: Equity Trainer / Pre-Flop Trainer / Odds & Outs and Equity Calculator

Quote:
 Originally Posted by rowhousepd APD isn't working since the recent Win 7 update. A popup says "Ace Poker Drills isn't not working. Windows is checking on a solution to the problem." What's up?
Yeah, if you have an issue with the Win 7 update, you can't load, and thus can't auto update. You have to go to the main site: http://acepokerdrills.com

Then download the setup and re-install. This was fixed right after the Win 7 update came out.

 07-22-2011, 05:35 PM #97 rowhousepd grinder     Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 593 Re: Ace Poker Drills: Equity Trainer / Pre-Flop Trainer / Odds & Outs and Equity Calculator Got it. But looks like no new changes / updates yet, huh?
 07-27-2011, 01:50 AM #98 pmania centurion     Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 110 Re: Ace Poker Drills Hello is there a trial too for the pre flop trainer part, or is there a separate website for it where you can download it maybe ? And is it right that you don't get any questions about odds & outs, you have to figure out yourself which possible hands you can still make ? And does it only calculate backdoor flushdraws but then what about backdoor straight draws ? Nevermind the trial question, got it working now. Last edited by pmania; 07-27-2011 at 01:55 AM. Reason: Nasty register popup which looks the same as HM registration btw is gone
 08-16-2011, 12:47 PM #99 FreakDaddy Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Making great poker HUDs Posts: 9,657 Re: Ace Poker Drills Missed this somehow. Yes, it calculates for back door outs. We're adding a feature soon that it will count for every kind of backdoor out, or just limit to common backdoor outs to provide a more rounded estimation of your equity.

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