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Old 05-21-2010, 11:51 AM   #151
Zima421
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

when i hear the word "vouch", to me it means that I will pay for that person/cover the tab if he rolls/scams people out of money.

am i alone in this thought?


also, i think it's fine lipo if you go into threads and state your thoughts on people, and if you dont want to buy a piece, just give a brief explanation why. doesnt need to be an essay. can just be "i got a lot of money tied up in other things/staking/hookers" seems fine.



i personally dont buy pieces of to many people for a lot of reasons. I think i have come into a share selling thread once and said something to the effect of "good investment at this markup blah blah blah" and at the time i felt a little weird cause i didnt buy any (even though i felt it was a good price). i have been asked by a few people to go into their threads to say a few words, but i generally dont like to and havent recently. just puts me in an awkward spot.

Last edited by Zima421; 05-21-2010 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 05-21-2010, 11:52 AM   #152
George Lind III
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

I would do that for ppl I vouch for, but I don't vouch for many ppl.

EDIT: This is assuming I vouched for their trustworthiness, not if I vouched for them being a good player or whatever.

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Old 05-21-2010, 11:54 AM   #153
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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when i hear the word "vouch", to me it means that I will pay for that person/cover the tab if he rolls/scams people out of money.

am i alone in this thought?


also, i think it's fine lipo if you go into threads and state your thoughts on people, and if you dont want to buy a piece, just give a brief explanation why. doesnt need to be an essay. can just be "i got a lot of money tied up in other things/staking/hookers" seems fine
This is absolutely my definition of vouch, and one reason I have never vouched for anyone in here (most people I would feel comfortable vouching for aren't looking for tournament stakes).

That said, it's clearly not the definition of "vouch" that reigns in the marketplace and I accept that.
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Old 05-21-2010, 11:54 AM   #154
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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If on the other hand you're vouching for skill it seems reasonable to buy some - why wouldn't you if it's +ev?
Maybe read his post?
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Old 05-21-2010, 11:58 AM   #155
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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2.) Opening up more and more packages in the same series after their first sells out. I think this is a pretty lousy way to conduct business for people selling WSOP action. Opening up a package saying "I'm playing these 3 tournaments" with no mention of playing others, then trying to add tournaments to the package after people had bought in or creating an entirely new package that clearly puts the player under a lot of pressure to play a ton of tournaments doesn't sit well with me.
I did open another thread to sell another couple of tournament I felt I could put in to my schedule. I had put some thought into it first. I don't know that it is always such a bad thing to sell a second package. Especially if there was a lot of interest in their first thread after it has already sold out. Would you say it would be in good form to consult the people who have purchased shares in the previous thread first before posting another thread or is opening a second package always just frowned upon.
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:01 PM   #156
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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This surely depends on the nature of the 'vouch'. If you are vouching for the honesty and integrity of the person i don't see why you should feel as though you should have to buy a piece. If on the other hand you're vouching for skill it seems reasonable to buy some - why wouldn't you if it's +ev?

I could vouch for my Grandpa as an honest person, but that doesn't mean I would in an effort to sell poker shares for him.

I feel like if you're going to vouch for somebody, you have to comment on their integrity and their EV in whatever they're selling action for. Why would anyone ever vouch for someone they didn't think were trustable AND profitable, and not just one or the other.


In terms of EV, there are a lot of things that are +EV that people pass up on. I didn't have an extra $500 online to buy a piece of Jorj, but damn I wish I could've. If CTS was selling HUPLO action against scout at 200/400 I probably wouldn't be able to take his minimum amount required to invest. Poker staking is a VERY high risk investment, and better suited for those with a larger bankroll. Also taking a bunch of small %s in very hectic in regards to taxes for both backers and horses, so a lot of time even if I feel something is +EV, I'll pass on it as it will be easier for everyone if I don't take a small %, and one of the bigger marketplace backers can get 5-10% chunks.
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:01 PM   #157
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Great posts all around.

Some things I think are poor form from buyers:

1.) General complaining about someone's package with no intent to buy AND no specific complaint. I think everyone would agree "you have no right to charge this markup, you suck" is out of line, while I would be fine with someone writing "i sharkscoped and OPRd your 3 screen names with the highest volume and the results don't justify this markup, could you please explain why you feel this price is acceptable?"

2.) Complaining about big buyers. If you think that people buying big chunks and large amounts of action is bad for the marketplace, you are crazy/an idiot.

Some things I think are poor form from sellers:

1.) Being ambiguous about what percentage is being sold, or stating a certain percentage and then changing it after people have locked in. This is the worst by far. I don't think there is really an ethics problem with someone freerolling a tourney (although I personally would almost never invest in this situation, maybe in some live cases) but so often on here people do that and are misleading about what they are doing.

2.) Opening up more and more packages in the same series after their first sells out. I think this is a pretty lousy way to conduct business for people selling WSOP action. Opening up a package saying "I'm playing these 3 tournaments" with no mention of playing others, then trying to add tournaments to the package after people had bought in or creating an entirely new package that clearly puts the player under a lot of pressure to play a ton of tournaments doesn't sit well with me.

3.) Vagueness with regards to references. References aren't built over night and if you don't have a strong base you just shouldn't be posting in the marketplace. Too often the wave of buys comes after a very reputable poster takes a big chunk and I have to say some of these first buys (I am guilty as well) have been pretty thin reference-wise.

4.) General attitude about markup. You are coming here to play tournaments that you can't afford to play. Yet the entitlement to be paid frequently pretty decent sums to do so is a bit gross.

Some ideas:

1.) A common format for all sellers. Every selling post just should start with a simple, easy-to-read header of something like

Tournament, buy-in:
Markup:
Cost of 1%:
Total amount to be sold:

Followed by the persons online sn's, references, other credentials, etc.

2.) Taxes. I do think it's kinda funny when someone posts "I'm from the UK so you don't have to pay taxes!" or whatever this common/misleading line is. I've done a fair amount of research into taxes from various countries for WSOP and from what I have found, the only issue is with Canadians. The Rio will hold around 30% of Canadian players' winnings and the standard is for the players to use a third party company called RMS to retreive this portion of the winnings. RMS charges a %age fee that works out to be rather small for large cashes, 1-2%, bigger for smaller cashes, 5-10%. On top of that, many people haven't received their RMS payments from last year. This is a huge issue (not always a dealbreaker) that should be very clear up front to investors. Several times now I have bought and shipped money for a share only for the person to say "by the way I'm Canadian and for taxes, blah blah blah." I just ask for the money back and leave with a poor impression of the person. There are a few Canadian players who have been extremely up front about the tax situation that I have made exceptions for and invested in, but in general, if you are from Canada and are selling WSOP action, you MUST make it known to potential investors that there are tax problems associated with any purchase.

3.) More information in OPs about ther player/person in general and WHY they need to be staked. This information is just helpful for anyone who wants to see anything more than a graph.
Great post. The bolded is a really good way to look at the situation. In terms of a potential buyer, are you saying it's okay to openly question a seller's mark up figure without valid reasoning or just okay to offer a lower price?
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:02 PM   #158
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

First I would like to apologize for my post that I made VERY LATE last night. No excuse for being so hateful and tilted but I was.

I should have taken a more direct and mature approach and will do so in the future. Not a very good way to get a point I was trying to make across. The reason I singled out who I did because he in fact trolled one of my share selling threads a few months ago and basically ruined it.

Somebody mentioned above also that Markup can/should be negotiated if people are interested but don't want to pay that much. Against my better judgement I made a thread and tried to sell shares. I was unaware at the time of the with/without ESTIMATED rebuy and addon expense on OPR. My 2008 and 2009 OPR's were both positive. 2010 at the time I was breakeven. I sold shares for 174 dollars worth of tourneys and just thinking make the math easier plus the fact I was feelling confident in having a good day I decided to make it 200 total 14 percent markup.

Instead of people passing on the thread I got troll after troll with their self important posts and this is what my thread turned into after probably ten deleted posts. Mostly from people who said they would buy shares with no markup but disappeared when I offered that. BTW I reported 0 posts and they were deleted by I think Bobo for one reason or another....

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...05/?highlight=

I am not the greatest tournament player around here I will be the first to admit that. I have won some and lost many. I have done my fair share of cashing too. I would like to think that my reputation on 2p2 when it comes to handling money is spotless though. When the markup was questioned and people were saying(one donkey in particular) ZOMG you are charging 14 percent markup and I would have bought shares if you didn't blah blah blah.....

I immediately offered to drop the markup to 0 as I really wanted to play that day. Guess what happened then? Nothing I guess the troll was too offended that I even had the gall to charge markup in the first place. I mean give me a break with that crap. The dude seemed like he was legit mad at me. Read the thread...

Lastly I would like to point out that a lot of these threads being made in the marketplace especially by unknowns should obviously be subject to scrutiny. There is no question about it. I mean it's pretty amazing that someone can link an OPR with good stats and people are ready to jump on it without doing much more due dilligence regarding character. Moreso in the past I think than in the present and future I am sure.

One particular supposed females thread proves that. I mean we all know how online poker is. A link to an OPR can be misleading in some cases with all of the ghosts/sharing accounts that goes on out there but whatever. All I can say is that every single hand/tourney I have ever played on my account has been by ME. Drunk or sober lol.

I would also like to think if I ever binked a 100k plus score I wouldn't need a 12 dollar 180 stake ever either but that is just me... Have a nice day gents I gotta get back to work.
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:03 PM   #159
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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I would do that for ppl I vouch for, but I don't vouch for many ppl.
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This is absolutely my definition of vouch, and one reason I have never vouched for anyone in here (most people I would feel comfortable vouching for aren't looking for tournament stakes).

That said, it's clearly not the definition of "vouch" that reigns in the marketplace and I accept that.
there is exactly 1 person i would vouch for on 2p2, and its my business/staking partner. we handle a lot of each others money all the time and there is a lot of mutual trust there. (free pageh656, btw)


i know in the sports "discussion" threads, when someone says "i vouch for this guy", that means if the new guy doesnt pay up on a bet, it's on the reg who vouched to pay for it.
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:03 PM   #160
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Originally Posted by Zima421 View Post
when i hear the word "vouch", to me it means that I will pay for that person/cover the tab if he rolls/scams people out of money.

am i alone in this thought?


also, i think it's fine lipo if you go into threads and state your thoughts on people, and if you dont want to buy a piece, just give a brief explanation why. doesnt need to be an essay. can just be "i got a lot of money tied up in other things/staking/hookers" seems fine.



i personally dont buy pieces of to many people for a lot of reasons. I think i have come into a share selling thread once and said something to the effect of "good investment at this markup blah blah blah" and at the time i felt a little weird cause i didnt buy any (even though i felt it was a good price). i have been asked by a few people to go into their threads to say a few words, but i generally dont like to and havent recently. just puts me in an awkward spot.
When you are asking some to Vouch, are you asking them to vouch for how trustworthy that person is or are you asking them to vouch for the money. I feel like when you ask someone to vouch, you are asking them can i trust this person and if they are someone notable and they trust them you feel like you can trust them too.
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:07 PM   #161
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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When you are asking some to Vouch, are you asking them to vouch for how trustworthy that person is or are you asking them to vouch for the money. I feel like when you ask someone to vouch, you are asking them can i trust this person and if they are someone notable and they trust them you feel like you can trust them too.
^^^^^^^^ This is what i think with regards to the staking thread. Works differently in different places.
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:07 PM   #162
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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When you are asking some to Vouch, are you asking them to vouch for how trustworthy that person is or are you asking them to vouch for the money. I feel like when you ask someone to vouch, you are asking them can i trust this person and if they are someone notable and they trust them you feel like you can trust them too.
They come hand in hand -- if you vouch someone, you are saying they are trustworthy AND paying up on the debt if you are wrong -- in the gambling world. Most of the people in the marketplace don't use the term that way though.
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:12 PM   #163
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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They come hand in hand -- if you vouch someone, you are saying they are trustworthy AND paying up on the debt if you are wrong -- in the gambling world. Most of the people in the marketplace don't use the term that way though.
I think what i said is a little off. What I am trying to get across is that I think people are looking for references for honesty and trustworthyness (my own word) and not for someone to vouch for the money. I think you would see a huge decline in people vouching if it worked that way in this thread.
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:14 PM   #164
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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I think you would see a huge decline in people vouching if it worked that way in this thread.
i think that's a good thing not a bad thing
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:17 PM   #165
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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I think what i said is a little off. What I am trying to get across is that I think people are looking for references for honesty and trustworthyness (my own word) and not for someone to vouch for the money. I think you would see a huge decline in people vouching if it worked that way in this thread.
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i think that's a good thing not a bad thing
i think its a great thing.
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:17 PM   #166
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Maybe read his post?
It was rhetorical, not specific to TLF
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:23 PM   #167
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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i think its a great thing.
I agree, but i don't think you will see anyone doing that. It's unnecessary risk.
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:24 PM   #168
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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I agree, but i don't think you will see anyone doing that. It's unnecessary risk.
What is the person vouching getting out of this.
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:26 PM   #169
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Yeah if you use the word "vouch" I have always known it to mean you are essentially a co-signer on the whole deal, meaning you will pay in the case the original party defaults.

I think that's 100% standard in the gambling world, and obviously people here use it a lot looser.

Being a reference for someone doesn't mean you have to vouch for someone either. It's completely fine to post something like, "Every business transaction I have had with this party has gone smoothly, and I wouldn't hesitate to do business with him in the future."
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:26 PM   #170
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

why do you keep quoting and responding to your own posts.



people who vouch get nothing out of it. vouching for people shouldnt be something done a lot or taken lightly.

Last edited by Zima421; 05-21-2010 at 12:28 PM. Reason: directed at joshua333 obv
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:32 PM   #171
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Something interesting would be if people were really vouching, as in guaranteeing the stake, that the seller would pay the voucher for his vouch (possibly as a % of the stake) in exchange for taking the risk of default. I think there would be a market for this actually, and people could definitely sell at a higher markup (or sell at their current price more easily) if there was a guarantee on the stake from a reputable poster, so it would be beneficial to the seller too.
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:33 PM   #172
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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why do you keep quoting and responding to your own posts.
Sorry will edit in next time. Just saying that I would never vouch for anyone unless i was getting something out of it. It is risk that i don't need. It's not to say that I don't trust the person, but there are other things that can go wrong besides someone just fleeing with money.
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:35 PM   #173
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Something interesting would be if people were really vouching, as in guaranteeing the steak, that the seller would pay the voucher for his vouch (possibly as a % of the stake) in exchange for taking the risk of default. I think there would be a market for this actually, and people could definitely sell at a higher markup if there was a guarantee on the stake in the buyers' minds.
That idea is good, but how would you value someones vouch.
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:35 PM   #174
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

that's for the market to decide
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Old 05-21-2010, 12:35 PM   #175
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Something interesting would be if people were really vouching, as in guaranteeing the steak, that the seller would pay the voucher for his vouch (possibly as a % of the stake) in exchange for taking the risk of default. I think there would be a market for this actually, and people could definitely sell at a higher markup if there was a guarantee on the stake in the buyers' minds.
Opening a can of worms imo - then you have to factor in the credibility of a vouch as well as the seller so you need a vouch of the vouch in essence.

Agreed it would work for very high profile players but it's not practical on a consistent basis for the marketplace.
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