Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > > >

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-21-2010, 07:17 AM   #126
Golfdish
old hand
 
Golfdish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 1,838
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aznpowr11 View Post
Also, I have heard that some sellers that are selling shares to live events include extra markup because of travel expenses. What amount of markup (in terms of $, not %) would be appropriate? Should there be a ceiling to this factor?

I literally have zero idea what the answer to this question is, lol.
absolutely not standard. and imo they shouldnt be doing this.
Golfdish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 07:27 AM   #127
Tazbolton
grinder
 
Tazbolton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Working
Posts: 632
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

maybe approving threads is a big job - but couldnt the monds be given a % share of every thread they look over?

I mean a mod will be able to asses the threads & be rewarded for it, dont know how the mods would view it as an idea though. I understand that if that wouldnt be appropriate then maybe a standard format could be agreed then maybe a standard format could be agreed.

making it clear the terms, mark up & Costs. Or as stated above the mark up must be indicated in the title.
Tazbolton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 07:29 AM   #128
Aznpowr11
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: not interested
Posts: 2,663
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Sellers shouldn't have to bear this financial burden of giving mods a % tho. imo.
Aznpowr11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 07:39 AM   #129
rje8686
Pooh-Bah
 
rje8686's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Nick Gaskin is a scammer
Posts: 3,603
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazbolton View Post
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...shares-788926/ - 80% sell @ 25% mark up = Free for the Horse with still 20% eq

Again 80% with 25% Mu - https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...1-25-a-787472/

Same again - https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...1-25-a-785058/

same again - https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...sop-me-788255/

so thats 4 threads Where the horses are getting 100% staked. I dont believe that 100% off the investors in that share are aware of that fact though - it isnt clear in all of the posts.

what about this one - 42% mark up! is this a fair charge? https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...n-main-788144/


and then you come to this - where one of the highly respected guys on here is charging 0 mu - https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...markup-761336/

Just to point out one or two things. A big winning player online is going to have a much greater edge in a 1k/1500 than a $50k event. This is why there are large markups for these events 1k/1500's.

The $50k event will be a hugely tough field and GLIII understands this and hence why he cant go and charge 30% MU.

On the note of 'freerollers' and people paying for expenses. This seems common and acceptable practice on PTP and it seems some of those people filter into this forum and expect the same. In fact the std on PTP seems to freeroll on 80/20 deals.

If cts came on here tomorrow and said he had gone busto and was looking to freeroll the whole WSOP. 100% his action would sell out... just cos hes gone busto doesnt suddenly make him a bad player. Thus he would still be a worthwhile investment regardless of how much action he sold.
rje8686 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 07:47 AM   #130
Zima421
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Zima421's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 18,880
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazbolton View Post

BUT, I can see so so many bad deals out there being bought up quick. people selling large packages @ 25% mark up & selling 80-90% thats madness. People are staking a horse & paying him a wage on top & Giving him a bit extra as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zima421 View Post
pretty much disagree with your whole post esp the bolded. i have never seen someone sell 80-90% of a mtt package with a 20% markup (thus creating a profit regardless of even cashing 1 mtt). if i missed an instance of this, dont hesitate to link it here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazbolton View Post
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...shares-788926/ - 80% sell @ 25% mark up = Free for the Horse with still 20% eq

Again 80% with 25% Mu - https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...1-25-a-787472/

Same again - https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...1-25-a-785058/

same again - https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...sop-me-788255/

so thats 4 threads Where the horses are getting 100% staked. I dont believe that 100% off the investors in that share are aware of that fact though - it isnt clear in all of the posts.

what about this one - 42% mark up! is this a fair charge? https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...n-main-788144/


and then you come to this - where one of the highly respected guys on here is charging 0 mu - https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...markup-761336/
first of all, you have yet to show me a thread where the person is making money regardless of what happens in the mtts (which was your first example that i bolded again). the people selling 80% at 25% mark-up are basically getting 20% of themselves in the mtts with 0 invested. they still need to cash some mtts before they see any money back. i have a feeling you are misunderstanding what the mark-up actually is and see "80% at 25% markup" and think these people are just skimming off 5% right off the top and free-rolling their 20% in action. this is not the case.


as far as the 42% markup thread goes, it's the WSOP ME. Is matt24's roi way over 42% in this event, yes. Is it a good buy at 42%, that's not for me to decide/comment on. the WSOP is the best mtt of the year as far as ROI though, and you comparing that to jorj95 selling 50k 8 game shares at even money is laughable. the mtts are totally different and i would bet matt24's roi in the ME is well over 10x jorj95's in the 50k 8 game event.

and matt24 is also highly respected on these boards, so to say that in terms of comparing him and jorj95 is also pretty dumb.



there was also a discussion in the marketplace a long while ago (maybe 6-8 months ago) that stating exactly what mark-up you are charging should be standard. it should be clearly marked in the thread, and having it in the title is probably even better.



(re-read a few of my posts, and i said "i had never seen someone sell at 25% markup and sell 80%, well obv i have as i frequent these forums quite a lot, but what i was getting at is the part where you say 80-90% at 25% mark up, which would than give the person profit regardless of any cashes. my bad for not clarifying my point in earlier posts)
Zima421 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 07:53 AM   #131
rje8686
Pooh-Bah
 
rje8686's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Nick Gaskin is a scammer
Posts: 3,603
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zima421 View Post
first of all, you have yet to show me a thread where the person is making money regardless of what happens in the mtts (which was your first example that i bolded again). the people selling 80% at 25% mark-up are basically getting 20% of themselves in the mtts with 0 invested. they still need to cash some mtts before they see any money back. i have a feeling you are misunderstanding what the mark-up actually is and see "80% at 25% markup" and think these people are just skimming off 5% right off the top and free-rolling their 20% in action. this is not the case.


as far as the 42% markup thread goes, it's the WSOP ME. Is matt24's roi way over 42% in this event, yes. Is it a good buy at 42%, that's not for me to decide/comment on. the WSOP is the best mtt of the year as far as ROI though, and you comparing that to jorj95 selling 50k 8 game shares at even money is laughable. the mtts are totally different and i would bet matt24's roi in the ME is well over 10x jorj95's in the 50k 8 game event.

and matt24 is also highly respected on these boards, so to say that in terms of comparing him and jorj95 is also pretty dumb.


I'd add one final thing. Some people just seem to want a sweat during the WSOP. Not like sports betting ever gives you the correct odds but people still do it. The winning sports bettors can spot incorrect pricing of the market...i guess the same applies to poker staking.

Last edited by rje8686; 05-21-2010 at 08:01 AM.
rje8686 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 08:03 AM   #132
Zima421
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Zima421's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 18,880
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Quote:
Originally Posted by rje8686 View Post


I'd add one final thing. Some people just seem to want a sweat during the WSOP. Not like sports betting ever gives you the correct odds but people still do it. The winning sports bettors can spot incorrect pricing of the market...i guess the same applies to poker staking.
nothing wrong with a good sweat.


oh, and lets go Magic
Zima421 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 08:59 AM   #133
lukethefluke
veteran
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,870
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zima421 View Post
first of all, you have yet to show me a thread where the person is making money regardless of what happens in the mtts (which was your first example that i bolded again).
ive defo seen at least one person doing this. there was someone selling 100% at 10% or 20% markup somewhere and people still bought it! Literally taking a wage to play for other people. I'll try and find an example, though it defo happened more than once. It was for sets of sngs if i remember correctly.

Edit: Here's one example: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1147

Pretty sure anderson did it quite often though. Think he's the only person i've seen sell 100% but there might be others who have sold 90%ish at a markup that gives them a small profit regardless. It's probably mostly the small packages that most regs don't open.

Last edited by lukethefluke; 05-21-2010 at 09:09 AM.
lukethefluke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 09:05 AM   #134
George Lind III
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Blogging
Posts: 3,750
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazbolton View Post
Ive decided against backing a horse unless he has a minimum of 20% invested with there own cash. In the long run it cant be good for backers having people do this for short term packages.

A long term backing agreement is totally different than someone wanting to get some investment to move up a level or 2 that they cant afford if sticking to BRM.

can anyone on this forum really show that they are a +EV investment with a 42% mark up?
If someone is able to sell their shares at 42% without misrepresenting themselves or their deal, I really don't see the problem with it. Why not let the market determine their value, instead of just conjecturing that it must be a bad deal solely because the markup is high?
George Lind III is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 09:13 AM   #135
analoguesounds
veteran
 
analoguesounds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,162
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

A few people did point that out to Anderson and he started taking %'s of himself.

Possibly a bit different too being sng's and a decent run at them (being 50), means people might be happy to pay him (10%) to run them.

Not everyone was that happy about it though.
analoguesounds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 09:15 AM   #136
George Lind III
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Blogging
Posts: 3,750
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazbolton View Post
Ive been looking @ this staking forum for a while & have just started to invest. Soley as a money maker.

BUT, I can see so so many bad deals out there being bought up quick. people selling large packages @ 25% mark up & selling 80-90% thats madness. People are staking a horse & paying him a wage on top & Giving him a bit extra as well.

This cant be good for the community - add that to the big guys buying big chunks of the better deals, it is leaving smaller investors with only the worst offers out there.

30% mark up is pretty pricey - but worth it for the likes of jorge! Surely there has to be some way of approving requests before they go out. Making sure that a fair markup is charged & that people arent trying to freeroll events.

anyway just my 2p.
Complaining about big investors taking all the shares is just pointless. Think of it from the seller's perspective from an accounting standpoint, do you think they prefer to have 3 people buy up all their shares or have 50 small investors? I don't see how it's anything but a good thing that packages are selling out quickly...I doubt many sellers want their thread to linger for weeks.

Besides if a seller wants to sell to many people, they can just set a maximum on the amount a buyer can buy, as I did in my last thread.
George Lind III is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 09:22 AM   #137
George Lind III
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Blogging
Posts: 3,750
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Also Re: Buyers buying big chunks, I've had several people PM me after I bought a bunch of shares from someone, asking me if they could have a piece because it sold out, and I've always given them the piece they asked for. As long as the request isn't unreasonable I'll continue to do so. I'm pretty sure cts has done the same. I don't think it's either of our goals to prevent other buyers from taking action, we're just looking for good deals for ourselves, and to help people get into events.
George Lind III is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 09:24 AM   #138
Tazbolton
grinder
 
Tazbolton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Working
Posts: 632
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Hey please dont get me wrong I am not complaining about the large investments, didnt mean it to come over like that.

What I mean is that when people like yourself & CTS go on a run then a larger % of the better deals are picked up quickly. Thats not a bad thing..

but what that leads to is the smaller investors missing out on the good deals & getting in with worst deals, thats all Im saying.
Tazbolton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 09:32 AM   #139
rje8686
Pooh-Bah
 
rje8686's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Nick Gaskin is a scammer
Posts: 3,603
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazbolton View Post
Hey please dont get me wrong I am not complaining about the large investments, didnt mean it to come over like that.

What I mean is that when people like yourself & CTS go on a run then a larger % of the better deals are picked up quickly. Thats not a bad thing..

but what that leads to is the smaller investors missing out on the good deals & getting in with worst deals, thats all Im saying.
cts has hardly ever post first in threads buying action. secondly if a person is selling 60% hes generally buying upto 2/3's of the max they are willing to sell.

If you want good investments you need to do your research like pof and rupert and check for new threads every few hours.

the biggest problem i see with this forum is the lack of knowledge from people wanting to post. firstly i get like 2-3 PM's a week from people who see my sticky and think i am a mod then start asking me the most basic Q's. If they even spent 1 second reading stickies they would go a lot further. At least 5 people have msg'ed me who needed help with the simple maths (uk spelling :P) of calculating markup. I always help out when i can and am happy to do so... but most of the answers are already there.

Last edited by rje8686; 05-21-2010 at 09:38 AM.
rje8686 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 09:55 AM   #140
Aznpowr11
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: not interested
Posts: 2,663
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

lol rje, if this thread remains stickied, I hope people don't PM me nonstop about markup questions and stuff. I am by no means the right person to ask.
Aznpowr11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 09:58 AM   #141
sufur
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
sufur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,364
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Quote:
Originally Posted by klink10k View Post
let me preface this by giving a little background before going on a long winded rant:

I have sold action for ftops/wcoop/wsop and random live events. I have also had a fair amount of success in some and have paid out mid 5 figures in profits to investors here. I don't play tournies that much, i'm mainly grind mid stakes 6max where i do pretty well for myself, but i don't have very good mtt results over small samples of high stakes mtts. However, i can honestly say that A. I do make sure I think i have a decent edge in everything i play before i play it (earlier this scoop i decided to sit out a couple of events that didn't look like great value even though i sold shares) and B. despite sometimes my markup > overall roi according to opr or whatever, i can say with confidence that i have never sold action in any event that i didn't think was a +ev investment for investors.

On the flip side a do buy a lot of action on these forums and my intent is to make money, not really to gamble. I do do a decent amount of research, pay attention to trends and look for good spots. Sometimes i got months without buying any action, sometimes i buy like 5-10k worth of action in a week.

As a result, i do believe there are people that are committing something close to straight up fraud in some of their threads, and they usually follow a certain trend, and i know many of these topics have been touched on itt:

1. unjustified markup: I see this all the time, a low to midstakes mtt grinder that has x% roi in mtts with on average buy in of $y over a large sample charges x% markup on an mtt or a series of mtts that is 5*$y. The assumption is that if i am winning at 30% roi at 26 dollar tournaments, i should have the same roi over an FTOPs series with the average buy in being $200+. I think this is especially important since a lot of the structures of these events play much deeper than your average 26 dollar tourneys and a lot of people are pretty clueless on how to play deep stack poker because they have very little experience.

2. Selling very large % of themselves This is especially troubling if they are selling something at high markup (i.e. if someone is selling 70%+ of themselves at 30% markup warning bells should be going off in your head). Obviously this is different for live mtts and wsop for various reasons, but there is almost no way to justify charging that much markup (assuming you are even attempting to make this investment profitable for buyers) and selling that much action. In reality, if your ROI is that big, there is no reason for you to be selling that much action, and you should want to keep as much of your action as you can. In fact, I am almost positive that anyone that is selling action like this is looking to freeroll a decent amount of equity assuming they are somewhat neutral ev vs. some fields which makes investments obviously -ev for backers.

3. Selling a large number of very small pieces. I think its pretty clear that the people that are putting large amounts of money buying shares into the 2p2 marketplace are doing quite a bit more homework on their investments than your random casual 2p2 lurker type with a couple hundo in online poker accounts doing nothing. Therefore, people that buy smaller pieces are easily going to be a lot more gullible than those buying bigger pieces. These threads are so easy to spot, lets say 2 people are selling 2.5k worth of action, the one that with a bit of research can be seen as +ev will be sold out fairly quicky with notable investors taking $250+ shares, the one that is a boarderline scam will take a bit longer to sell out, usually by 30 or more people taking $50 worth of action. Usually these people will be less familiar with the ins and outs of investing in poker, lurk less in marketplace, post less on 2p2, etc.

I recently called out tourbound for making an absurd thread here that fit every single characteristic i have noticed and listed above:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...k-ftop-754096/

anyways, i don't really want to get into a discussion about this exact staking thread, but I attempted to point out some basic signs that pointed to how this was a terrible investment, and mods deleted most of my comments and i was labeled as a troll by the very people that may be making a terrible investment without further consideration.

I realized the problem then and there:

I honestly don't care that much about people who are uninformed who don't know what they are doing with their money, but its another thing to actively facilitate a culture where these people can be easily scammed out of their money and not realize it. I think the main question is if there should be a system to protect investors who are unable to make rational decisions in the 2p2 marketplace?

Its a tough spot tbh, i'm not sure what active measures can come from this discussion.
I like most of this post and I checked out the link. I wouldn't go so far as saying the op was trying to scam or commit fraud but WOW @ that thread.

I don't exactly agree with your comment on mid stakes grinders having an equal edge in their reg tourns and these higher buyin series. I agree with your conclusion but I think it's overwhelmingly due to structure. I think the increased buyin is more then compensated for by the advertising and satellite entrants. I could be wrong but that's my take on it. There's also obviously a line at some point, and if op really has a $24 abi then that's probably really close to that line.

I was going to quote a post by op that, I thought, particularly outlined his lack of understanding about variance and tournament poker but I thought it's not my place. Especially since he was probably responding emotionally to what he perceived as an attack (kind of was by zima and klink didn't exactly use much tact when wording his comments). In fact, I think it would have been a lot better to politely point out concerns with op's offer at the outset rather then to wait till afterwards and embarrass the seller and his buyers (which I'm sure wasn't klink's intent).

So, I've said in the mttc thread that I'm naive wrt business so take this fwiw. I'm okay with charging as much as you think people are willing to buy(well, I still think it's kinda scummy to sell yourself at a price you feel isn't +ev for the buyers, unless you say as much) but only if anyone has free reign to post polite cristisms in anyone's thread. I admit, I can see logistical reasons why this might not be allowed.
sufur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 10:31 AM   #142
ULOST2AKID
veteran
 
ULOST2AKID's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: No longer the kid :(
Posts: 2,822
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Quote:
Originally Posted by klink10k View Post
1. maybe not individuals, but if there is a general consensus is its too high than maybe something should be done. there is a huge difference between complaining like Alan Kessler and actually doing something for the good of marketplace as a whole, the point of everyone investing is they want to make money right?

2. Explain why we shouldn't criticize people for exploiting uninformed investors.
I think the main problem is who has the authority to determine if someone is "exploiting" uniformed investors. I'm sure you're pretty knowledgeable, but should it be ok for some random, who may or may not have the same evaluation skills, to make the same judgment calls? I'm not sure how to "fix" the situation. I mean if we let any1 comment on markups then ppl could just come in to every thread saying MU is too high and almost always guaranteeing that it will get lowered. At the same time, I guess I would like to see some precautionary measures taken to "protect" naive investors.
ULOST2AKID is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 11:09 AM   #143
Alexos
old hand
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,968
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Great thread. I think the main idea is that the original posts should have way more information than they normally do. It should cover everything from markup, min and max % you're gonna sell, how taxes will be dealt with, how payments will be dealt with and time frame, tipping, exchange rates, etc...

People that don't respect these rules should get a warning and be banned on the second offense.
Alexos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 11:21 AM   #144
cts
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
cts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,738
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Great posts all around.

Some things I think are poor form from buyers:

1.) General complaining about someone's package with no intent to buy AND no specific complaint. I think everyone would agree "you have no right to charge this markup, you suck" is out of line, while I would be fine with someone writing "i sharkscoped and OPRd your 3 screen names with the highest volume and the results don't justify this markup, could you please explain why you feel this price is acceptable?"

2.) Complaining about big buyers. If you think that people buying big chunks and large amounts of action is bad for the marketplace, you are crazy/an idiot.

Some things I think are poor form from sellers:

1.) Being ambiguous about what percentage is being sold, or stating a certain percentage and then changing it after people have locked in. This is the worst by far. I don't think there is really an ethics problem with someone freerolling a tourney (although I personally would almost never invest in this situation, maybe in some live cases) but so often on here people do that and are misleading about what they are doing.

2.) Opening up more and more packages in the same series after their first sells out. I think this is a pretty lousy way to conduct business for people selling WSOP action. Opening up a package saying "I'm playing these 3 tournaments" with no mention of playing others, then trying to add tournaments to the package after people had bought in or creating an entirely new package that clearly puts the player under a lot of pressure to play a ton of tournaments doesn't sit well with me.

3.) Vagueness with regards to references. References aren't built over night and if you don't have a strong base you just shouldn't be posting in the marketplace. Too often the wave of buys comes after a very reputable poster takes a big chunk and I have to say some of these first buys (I am guilty as well) have been pretty thin reference-wise.

4.) General attitude about markup. You are coming here to play tournaments that you can't afford to play. Yet the entitlement to be paid frequently pretty decent sums to do so is a bit gross.

Some ideas:

1.) A common format for all sellers. Every selling post just should start with a simple, easy-to-read header of something like

Tournament, buy-in:
Markup:
Cost of 1%:
Total amount to be sold:

Followed by the persons online sn's, references, other credentials, etc.

2.) Taxes. I do think it's kinda funny when someone posts "I'm from the UK so you don't have to pay taxes!" or whatever this common/misleading line is. I've done a fair amount of research into taxes from various countries for WSOP and from what I have found, the only issue is with Canadians. The Rio will hold around 30% of Canadian players' winnings and the standard is for the players to use a third party company called RMS to retreive this portion of the winnings. RMS charges a %age fee that works out to be rather small for large cashes, 1-2%, bigger for smaller cashes, 5-10%. On top of that, many people haven't received their RMS payments from last year. This is a huge issue (not always a dealbreaker) that should be very clear up front to investors. Several times now I have bought and shipped money for a share only for the person to say "by the way I'm Canadian and for taxes, blah blah blah." I just ask for the money back and leave with a poor impression of the person. There are a few Canadian players who have been extremely up front about the tax situation that I have made exceptions for and invested in, but in general, if you are from Canada and are selling WSOP action, you MUST make it known to potential investors that there are tax problems associated with any purchase.

3.) More information in OPs about ther player/person in general and WHY they need to be staked. This information is just helpful for anyone who wants to see anything more than a graph.
cts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 11:31 AM   #145
The Lipo Fund
grinder
 
The Lipo Fund's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Chasing the Green Light
Posts: 13,433
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

In regards to vouching for people and not taking a %, or a large %


I have vouched for a few people lately, and in each case tried to take a % if I could, but in one case, I was unsure of my own financial situation and unable to take a %, but this by no means meant that that particular person was any less value than any other person I've taken a % of, in fact he was probably better value than almost every piece I had bought previously.

I hope people don't have a big problem with me vouching for people without taking a large %, as I know many people, and I felt like I was doing the marketplace a favor by helping bring some of their action here. I wouldn't ever provide a reference for anybody unless I was 100% sure they were a good investment. As it would reflect very poorly upon me as a person, and hopefully people in the marketplace realize that my reputation is worth more than $1000 in WSOP action I could take of someone I vouched for.


Another reason not to take a bunch of action in people you vouch for, is that for every 1% of someone else I can get, I could get 1% of myself which in my opinion is a better investment for me. Or I can back more people for lower variance things (I back more than 10 people) since I don't have as much money to throw into higher risk (but at the same time. much higher reward) investments.


Like I said, I try to take action when I can, but while being away from the country, and having $0 online of your own money after withdrawing for Vegas, it will be very hard for me to take action of anymore people for the series, though I could Imagine as the series draws closer there may be other people wanting to bring their action to 2p2 that aren't necessarily established here that know me very well. Do you guys have an issue with me providing a reference for said people without taking a large %? I am part of a growing private community with a lot of very profitable players that may want to play some WSOP events and sell action, and if they post a thread here, I would certainly continue to vouch for some of them if that was ok. But you guys can let me know what is/isn't appropriate.

I certainly don't think I'm doing any harm, and the posts may not have even been in reference to the one time I provided a reference/didn't take action, but I just wanted to clarify what people's thoughts were.
The Lipo Fund is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 11:33 AM   #146
cts
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
cts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,738
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

I think vouching for someone and not taking a piece is fine but that you should mention the reason (all of those reasons are perfectly reasonable) you aren't taking a piece if you want anyone to take your recommendation seriously.
cts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 11:36 AM   #147
rje8686
Pooh-Bah
 
rje8686's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Nick Gaskin is a scammer
Posts: 3,603
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

I only vouch for people i know IRL and also people I trust 100%. If one of them scams someone on here its also my rep on the line at the end of the day.

The tax thing is a fair point. I should of never assumed Americans play tax on winnings regardless if they play or stake someone.
rje8686 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 11:39 AM   #148
sjp507
banned
 
sjp507's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Climbing in your windows
Posts: 2,392
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Quote:
Originally Posted by cts View Post
I think vouching for someone and not taking a piece is fine but that you should mention the reason (all of those reasons are perfectly reasonable) you aren't taking a piece if you want anyone to take your recommendation seriously.
This surely depends on the nature of the 'vouch'. If you are vouching for the honesty and integrity of the person i don't see why you should feel as though you should have to buy a piece. If on the other hand you're vouching for skill it seems reasonable to buy some - why wouldn't you if it's +ev?
sjp507 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 11:41 AM   #149
The Lipo Fund
grinder
 
The Lipo Fund's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Chasing the Green Light
Posts: 13,433
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Quote:
Originally Posted by cts View Post
I think vouching for someone and not taking a piece is fine but that you should mention the reason (all of those reasons are perfectly reasonable) you aren't taking a piece if you want anyone to take your recommendation seriously.

Yeah, in that one particular case I was very clear about my reasons, but just wanted to make sure there was no issue.


In regards to reopening action, what are people's thoughts on people selling a package and saying they are selling a minimum of X% and a maximum of X%. They sell their min %, and later decide to sell more approaching their max %. Is there an issue in selling more action if it was originally stated that you may wish to sell more as an event draws closer, so long as it doesn't exceed the max% originally stated?
The Lipo Fund is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2010, 11:44 AM   #150
George Lind III
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Blogging
Posts: 3,750
Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lipo Fund View Post
Yeah, in that one particular case I was very clear about my reasons, but just wanted to make sure there was no issue.


In regards to reopening action, what are people's thoughts on people selling a package and saying they are selling a minimum of X% and a maximum of X%. They sell their min %, and later decide to sell more approaching their max %. Is there an issue in selling more action if it was originally stated that you may wish to sell more as an event draws closer, so long as it doesn't exceed the max% originally stated?
I have zero problem with this personally, and also I have very little problem with people reopening a package to sell a little bit more, unless they are close to a freeroll. Like if someone sold 30% at 20% markup and wanted to sell 10% more I wouldn't care at all, but if someone sold 70% at 20% markup and then wanted to sell 10% more I'd definitely have an issue with it.
George Lind III is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online