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Old 05-20-2010, 01:28 AM   #1
Aznpowr11
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Post ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for Selling Shares advice/questions***

I've noticed several semi-derailments of people's 'selling shares' threads recently and it was mentioned that perhaps a separate thread designated for the discussion of these topics could benefit the 2+2 community.

Derailments have included such questions as:

1) Why are you charging X% markup when your lifetime ROI is Y%, where X > Y?

2)Why does someone charge, say, 25% markup, then proceed to sell 80% of their action, essentially freerolling their 20%?

etc etc.

Possibly most importantly, what are proper/improper posts from those who have zero intention of buying shares from OP, yet feel the need to share their opinion on the value of the package being offered (usually a negative opinion in this case).


Since I don't personally buy tons of action from those selling shares on 2p2, I figure I'd let those who often buy and sell action get the ball rolling with their thoughts on these issues.

Mods, feel free to delete this thread if for some reason it is not beneficial to this community.
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Old 05-20-2010, 01:39 AM   #2
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Very good questions. I before have questioned why breakeven/losing players are trying to charge MU in their own threads. It might be none of my business, but this is a community and there are a lot of new people buying shares that might not get too in depth into the OPs stats. Sometimes the OP themselves are not that knowledgeable and are just charging x% markup becuase they see everyone else doing it. It's a valid question to ask people why they are charging MU higher than you can expect in return or why they are busto and can't pay for even a tiny bit of the buyin themselves.

It's kind of a dick move to ####block peoples action like that, but this this is a public forum and if you are going to use it to sell part of yourself, I think you need to answer any reasonable questions people have. Mods are usually really good about deleting comments that are just plain rude and pointless.

I doubt this thread will be deleted but it might get moved to ATF.

Last edited by Rusemandingo; 05-20-2010 at 01:54 AM. Reason: Just remembered the thread I read that says you cant say ####.
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Old 05-20-2010, 02:11 AM   #3
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

dont post anything negative in other's threads, if someone is dumb enough to buy into a losing players shares, esp one with a markup, they are stupid fish and deserve to get valuetowned by said losing player.
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Old 05-20-2010, 02:20 AM   #4
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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dont post anything negative in other's threads, if someone is dumb enough to buy into a losing players shares, esp one with a markup, they are stupid fish and deserve to get valuetowned by said losing player.
This is just so wrong on so many levels.

1) If a player ties up his funds in an obviously bad investment that means he has now limited his funds for other players requesting support in reasonable packages.

2) With bad investments out there with a markup good players will start asking for even higher markups and in turn become a bad investment and all investors will lose on average and the marketplace will dry up.

3) It's just not ethical and is not what the marketplace should be saturated with. I don't want to see people get hurt when trying to help someone play a tourney. Perhaps we differ on this.
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Old 05-20-2010, 02:27 AM   #5
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

I don't think we should make rules against being stupid. People have a right to be dumb and make poor investments. If you want to help people make more sound investments, make a thread about it or something. I think its mostly common sense: background check the prospective stakee in OPR, sharkscope, PTR, etc. check the events they intend on playing and if you think you're investment is +EV given the player and the markup, stick some money in. EZgame.
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Old 05-20-2010, 02:27 AM   #6
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

yeah i have no qualms about pointing out possible bad investments, and i'd hope others would return the favor.
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Old 05-20-2010, 02:39 AM   #7
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

x-posted from the thread i started in MTTc, which everyone should read that's interested in this sort of thing.

Quote:
A few of my thoughts on the subject:

First off the Marketplace is a weird place. I lurk it pretty hard, rarely buying and rarely selling. I've sold pieces of myself twice in the Marketplace; once for this years PCA and once for some of this years SCOOP tourneys.

In the Marketplace, charging markup is a standard. Buyers look at people who don't charge markup as great buys, and people who charge the higher markups as either not so great buys OR decent buys for a great player. One of the major issues, like everyone has mentioned, is that it's nearly impossible to truly know your ROI, which is what most people will use as their number one factor for determining an appropriate markup.

When I went to sell pieces for PCA, I honestly had no idea what an appropriate markup would be for myself. I know that I have a recognizable name, but I am not sure how much of that is from my ability as a poker player or because I've been around 2p2 for almost 7 years. So, to set my price I just looked at what other people were charging. I then posted at a markup that I thought was the most I could get. I sold within a day or so.

In my situation, I charged what I thought was the most I could get. To be honest I didn't even consider how +EV or -EV it might be. But, why should I? If there is such a grey area between the two when ROI's are, as Todd Terry mentioned, impossible to truly know, then as a seller what is wrong with erring on the side of -EV? We can all convince ourselves in the end it's still somewhat +EV right?

Furthermore, we are dealing with a community of gamblers. If you told every buyer in the Marketplace that their expectation on every piece they buy was neutral EV or even possibly slightly -EV, they would still probably buy. Buyers buy pieces that they know are -EV just because they want a sweat for the night, or for a huge event. If this all holds true (which I firmly believe it does), as a seller, shouldn't we be maximizing our expectation and charging whatever markup puts us at about a neutral EV investment? Would this be totally unethical? Isn't this providing a service and means for people who want to gamble, something we all do from time to time if not for a living?

What intrigues me the most about the Marketplace is when buyers get upset about a price. The Marketplace is a unique type of economical/finance realm where the prices are almost entirely set by...the buyers. It's comical really when people complain about markups being too high when the guy is selling out in 12 hours or so. You have to remember these investment products that are being sold have incredibly short lives. They will normally expire within a few hours, so if they don't sell quickly, the price will drop significantly when it's close to "shuffle up and deal". If buyers made more of an effort to resist that urge to gamble on neutral to -EV pieces, prices across the board would drop significantly. But, alas, we all have a little too much gamble in us.

Also, regarding posting in someone's thread that their markup is too high: I don't have a problem with negotiating. If you are interested in buying and want a better price then by all means post away (or you might find PM'ing more effective, seriously you won't offend the guy and he'll likely offer you a way better deal in private). If you aren't interested in buying, but don't think the guy is a +EV investment at the current markup, why even post? Especially if the guy has already sold a bunch of pieces. At that point you are now insulting a bunch of buyers as well (who will likely buy a piece of you if you ever sell). Also if you are well respected member of the community where you will definitely influence buyers why post if you aren't anywhere close to 100% sure the investment is going to be -EV?. Whatever, this battle has been fought over in the Marketplace the last few days and wasn't really the point of this thread.
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Old 05-20-2010, 02:40 AM   #8
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Originally Posted by George Lind III View Post
yeah i have no qualms about pointing out possible bad investments, and i'd hope others would return the favor.

^see this guy is the sort that deserves to charge 25% mu imo.

I think some people get caried away with charging mu and sometimes it's good for the community to respectfully question it.

If I was stupidly going to overpay for an item at a store and a customer told me the same item was 10% cheaper across the road, I think that's great. Thanks.

The store may hate it but the consumer has a right to know.

It wouldn't actually happen to me bacause I am tight as they come and would have found the store that was 25% cheaper, but just saying.

I think it's unfair to just suggest that people get what's coming to them if they are a little ignorant of the situation. It doesn't always equate to them being stupid - maybe a little naive or unaware.
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Old 05-20-2010, 02:46 AM   #9
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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^see this guy is the sort that deserves to charge 25% mu imo.

I think some people get caried away with charging mu and sometimes it's good for the community to respectfully question it.

If I was stupidly going to overpay for an item at a store and a customer told me the same item was 10% cheaper across the road, I think that's great. Thanks.

The store may hate it but the consumer has a right to know.

It wouldn't actually happen to me bacause I am tight as they come and would have found the store that was 25% cheaper, but just saying.

I think it's unfair to just suggest that people get what's coming to them if they are a little ignorant of the situation. It doesn't always equate to them being stupid - maybe a little naive or unaware.
What if he told you it was 10% cheaper across the road and then when you got across it was higher priced or the same price or only 2% cheaper? How would that make you feel? 100% certainty on prices don't exist in this Marketplace, that's one of the reasons I feel it's in bad form to chime in if you have no intention of buying, you honestly aren't anywhere near to 100% authority on the subject.
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Old 05-20-2010, 02:48 AM   #10
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Amurophil, this is a poker community, not a poker game. Me telling a 2+2 newb that he is getting ripped off is not the same as me telling fish at a table that there's a straight on the board. By your logic, if I see someone I know to be a scammer in the funds transfer thread, I should just keep my mouth shut then?

But there's more to it than the kombiah community stuff. As a buyer of pieces of people, it's in my best interest to make sure people arent overcharging for pieces, even if I dont want a piece of them. Staking/shares is a market economy and once people start getting away with charging too much markup, it becomes the industry standard and then its taking money out of my pocket.

The rare times I have spoken up have been at the very beginning of the threads. I saw a thread that might have lead to this one where someone had already sold half of themselves and then someone came in saying he was charging too much MU. I myself dont think I'd do that, but again this is a public forum and people should be allowed to express any opinions they have. The mods are here to decide if anyone crosses the line.

I just want to be clear that even though I made the analogy, I in no way think that people that (intentionally or unintentionally) overcharge MU are even close to people that outright scam xfers and similar.

Last edited by Rusemandingo; 05-20-2010 at 02:56 AM.
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Old 05-20-2010, 02:55 AM   #11
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Originally Posted by tdomeski View Post
What if he told you it was 10% cheaper across the road and then when you got across it was higher priced or the same price or only 2% cheaper? How would that make you feel? 100% certainty on prices don't exist in this Marketplace, that's one of the reasons I feel it's in bad form to chime in if you have no intention of buying, you honestly aren't anywhere near to 100% authority on the subject.
Well since it across the road it probably wouldn't bother me much - I'd just cross back over and get it from the first place.

I can see my analogy is breaking down here and quickly turning into farce - so let's drop that.

I know it's different here in this community.

But surely it's still a market and as such the market will determine fair price.

That price will potentially fluctuate between say 0-30% for example depending on the situation.

I charge 0% markup because I am nobody and don't believe I deserve it.

Others charge 25-30%.

Not all of them are "somebodies".

If I am going well and my roi is going great and someone comes into my thread and says "hey you should at least be charging 10% mu based on your roi" is that unfair to potential investors?

I mean surely it's not about whether someone asks a question of someone in a thread about their mu rate, but moreso how it is done? As in no trolling!!

All stakes and shares threads should be absolutely transparent imo.
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Old 05-20-2010, 02:55 AM   #12
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Originally Posted by George Lind III View Post
yeah i have no qualms about pointing out possible bad investments, and i'd hope others would return the favor.
Should everyone in the community be informed of a "bad investment" or should ignorance from investors be allowed? I quote bad investment because it really is an opinion, even though 75 or 80% of the 2p2 community may share the same opinion.

I'm still not sure if people should be able to chime in their opinions of a bad investment, or simply be forced to stay silent and let others who don't think the package is a bad investment invest.

Last edited by Aznpowr11; 05-20-2010 at 03:01 AM.
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Old 05-20-2010, 03:01 AM   #13
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Rusemandingo, alerting the community about a scammer in the funds transfer thread is a little more black and white than alerting the community about a bad investment.

I would assume you would have some kind of proof or evidence of scamming before alerting others he's a scammer. What kind of proof would you use to alert others of a bad investment, especially when the seller is already showing his OPRs, PTR, Sharkscope, etc. The biggest problem here is that bad and good investments are still opinions, even if the majority of the community believe a package is + or - EV
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Old 05-20-2010, 03:03 AM   #14
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Originally Posted by Aznpowr11 View Post
I'm still not sure if people should be able to chime in their opinions of a bad investment, or simply be forced to stay silent and let others who don't think the package is a bad investment invest.
Zima started a thread in the marketplace a few months ago where he asked everyone if they were up or down buying pieces of people. The overwhelming answer was down. I realize some people make a ton from staking (JBax) but I wouldnt be surprised if overall people were down from staking in the marketplace threads. If this is the case, it is almost certainly due in part to the fact that the MU we are paying is higher than the individual is really worth. Why should I not be able then to post in someones thread, quoting stats and my opinion, if I have the chance, as small as it may be, to get that MU down from 20% to 15%. Again I'll cite the fact that this is a market economy and if buyers.let sellers set the prices, without any discussion or questioning, they are going to end up getting the short end of the stick.

I'm a frequent trader in the person to person thread and there are numerous poster there that will call out people with low post counts or that have inconsistancies or when something just looks weird. They dont have solid evidence, and they are even wrong about the person sometimes, but mentioning things that seem a little off is the norm in that thread and I feel should be the norm in the marketplace.

Again, the two are not the same thing at all and I only brought it up to challenge that dudes assertion that people that are stupid enough to overpay for MU deserve to "valuetowned"

Last edited by Rusemandingo; 05-20-2010 at 03:11 AM.
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Old 05-20-2010, 03:05 AM   #15
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Originally Posted by Aznpowr11 View Post
Should everyone in the community be informed of a "bad investment" or should ignorance from investors be allowed? I quote bad investment because it really is an opinion, even though 75 or 80% of the 2p2 community may share the same opinion.

I'm still not sure if people should be able to chime in their opinions of a bad investment, or simply be forced to stay silent and let others who don't think the package is a bad investment invest.
I'm not talking about ppl who I think are slightly overcharging on their markup, in those threads I'd just stay silent and not buy a piece. I'm just talking about people who put out an absolutely ridiculous deal or have reputation issues, or something like that. I just don't like seeing people getting ripped off.
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Old 05-20-2010, 03:06 AM   #16
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Originally Posted by Rusemandingo View Post
Zima started a thread in the marketplace a few months ago where he asked everyone if they were up or down buying pieces of people. The overwhelming answer was down. I realize some people make a ton from staking (JBax) but I wouldnt be surprised if overall people were down from staking in the marketplace threads. If this is the case, it is almost certainly due in part to the fact that the MU we are paying is higher than the individual is really worth. Why should I not be able then to post in someones thread, quoting stats and my opinion, if I have the chance, as small as it may be, to get that MU down from 20% to 15%. Again I'll cite the fact that this is a market economy and if buyers.let sellers set the prices, without any discussion or questioning, they are going to end up getting the short end of the stick.
its almost certainly the case that their sample size is no where near relevant
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Old 05-20-2010, 03:06 AM   #17
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Originally Posted by Rusemandingo View Post
Zima started a thread in the marketplace a few months ago where he asked everyone if they were up or down buying pieces of people. The overwhelming answer was down. I realize some people make a ton from staking (JBax) but I wouldnt be surprised if overall people were down from staking in the marketplace threads. If this is the case, it is almost certainly due in part to the fact that the MU we are paying is higher than the individual is really worth. Why should I not be able then to post in someones thread, quoting stats and my opinion, if I have the chance, as small as it may be, to get that MU down from 20% to 15%. Again I'll cite the fact that this is a market economy and if buyers.let sellers set the prices, without any discussion or questioning, they are going to end up getting the short end of the stick.
In the current Marketplace, the buyers are influencing the prices a ton more than the sellers.
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Old 05-20-2010, 03:08 AM   #18
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

^ that's got to be a good thing imo, if true.
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Old 05-20-2010, 03:09 AM   #19
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Would you ever post in someones thread who you believe to be selling at less markup then they are worth(or the marketplace will bear), and advise them to charge a higher markup?

Real shocked I haven't seen this yet :P
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Old 05-20-2010, 03:12 AM   #20
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusemandingo View Post
Zima started a thread in the marketplace a few months ago where he asked everyone if they were up or down buying pieces of people. The overwhelming answer was down. I realize some people make a ton from staking (JBax) but I wouldnt be surprised if overall people were down from staking in the marketplace threads. If this is the case, it is almost certainly due in part to the fact that the MU we are paying is higher than the individual is really worth. Why should I not be able then to post in someones thread, quoting stats and my opinion, if I have the chance, as small as it may be, to get that MU down from 20% to 15%. Again I'll cite the fact that this is a market economy and if buyers.let sellers set the prices, without any discussion or questioning, they are going to end up getting the short end of the stick.

I'm a frequent trader in the person to person thread and there are numerous poster there that will call out people with low post counts or that have inconsistancies or when something just looks weird. They dont have solid evidence, and they are even wrong about the person sometimes, but mentioning thing that seem a little off is the norm in that thread and I feel should be the norm in the marketplace.

Staking in this thread is like tournament poker overall....mostly losing followed by a couple large wins. Most of the stakes here are for one day packages, and are concentrated around large field NLHE online and live tourneys. Most times you are going to lose money.

I have a 40-50% ROI on Stars thus year, but have booked a profit in prolly @ 20% of my sessions (days) playing tourney poker this year. So if people only buy shares in me or someone else on one random Sunday, then they have an 80% chance of losing money despite backing a winning player.
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Old 05-20-2010, 03:14 AM   #21
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Originally Posted by George Lind III View Post
I'm not talking about ppl who I think are slightly overcharging on their markup, in those threads I'd just stay silent and not buy a piece. I'm just talking about people who put out an absolutely ridiculous deal or have reputation issues, or something like that. I just don't like seeing people getting ripped off.
I would 100% advocate chiming in if there were reputation issues. Not sure if I think someone believing a package is outrageous is grounds to post their opinion. Fwiw, I have seen a few packages recently that I would deem outrageous, but have chosen not to express my opinions, mainly because I still don't know if I should even be allowed to voice my thoughts.
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Old 05-20-2010, 03:17 AM   #22
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Originally Posted by gettym View Post
Would you ever post in someones thread who you believe to be selling at less markup then they are worth(or the marketplace will bear), and advise them to charge a higher markup?

Real shocked I haven't seen this yet :P
In many cases, the person selling the shares charges no markup (or a small markup %) to build up their reputation for future shares. The lack of reputation increases the likelihood of getting scammed, resulting in the reduced markup rate.
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Old 05-20-2010, 03:17 AM   #23
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

I think this thread is very helpful.

I have been buying a decent amount of action here lately but I try not to post negative opinions in peoples' threads. I might offer to buy x amount of shares or x% at lower MU or even money but I wont say hey you're ROI is -20 and you're charging 10% MU etc.

I think it is more appropriate to PM the OP to ask for a reduced mark up and explain your reasoning privately.


I also think it is ok to respond with an offer. Say the OP is selling 50% @ 25% MU and they have an ROI of 10%, I think it is fine to offer to buy 10% action @ 10% MU.

It is somewhat disrespectful in my opinion to just go on a rant complaining about how much mark up someone is charging. If you don't want to pay the mark up, click the red X at the top right and move along.

My .02 with 0 MU.

GG.
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Old 05-20-2010, 03:17 AM   #24
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

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Originally Posted by threatnasty View Post
its almost certainly the case that their sample size is no where near relevant
no one will ever reach a significant sample while selling action in the marketplace selling 15 mtt packages.


not sure of my point, but yeah

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Originally Posted by tdomeski View Post
In the current Marketplace, the buyers are influencing the prices a ton more than the sellers.
not sure i agree with you there. care to elaborate a bit?
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Old 05-20-2010, 03:21 AM   #25
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Re: A Markup, ROI, and Etiquette discussion pertaining to selling/buying shares

if the player is a known scammer or generally shady individual obv you should in the thread to let people know, or maybe this guy shouldnt have the ability to make a thread in the first place.

regarding players offering stakes with retarded markups, I agree with that huge essay posted earlier. If people are willing to buy it, people should be allowed to sell it
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