*** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players *** - Page 5

The way the new marketplace and staking sections are setup, you are not allowed to bump your selling share thread with updates while it is going on. It is also very annoying for investors to receive no updates during the events. I believe having a rail thread is expected and should be common practice for anyone selling packages nowadays. I also think the rail thread should include pertinent info so investors do not have to jump around through threads trying to confirm they have that package, what events are part of it, what the horses sn is on diff sites etc.

10-07-2010 , 03:45 AM

#103

bukkkiks

stranger

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 2

I want play sng HU, MTT freezout, NL/omaha hi cash game
I'm selling 40 % it is from 100$ prize you get 40$
Pokerstars- bukkkiks fulltilt- bukkkiks cake poker- bukkkiks
On online poker Im pretty new but I'v got expirience on live. on live im big winner.

10-08-2010 , 08:35 PM

#104

a-k-47

centurion

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 121

facepalm ^

some very good tips from op etc.ty

10-10-2010 , 08:41 AM

#105

jthek111

stranger

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 8

Hi, I'm jthek111,brooklyn,pokerstars,new to 2x2, 99+% opr,check out my stats, looking to be staked 75% due to variance in todays,500,million,warmup,at a little mu, total buy in of 960, at mu that 5% is 60 10% equals 120, if something comes up that I can't play, $ will be refunded rightaway

11-09-2010 , 05:11 PM

#106

WeebsUK

centurion

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 130

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoGGz

2p2 share selling doesn't do stakeback, so if you are posting in standard 2p2 style, it never needs to be mentioned.

is this by the horses choice or is it the rules of twoplustwo?

or due to how the stakers pay markup and get straight % cuts after the fact cover any need for makeup?

? may be completely stupid, but my head is assploding after only knowing the PTP way for so long.

11-15-2010 , 07:17 PM

#107

kievclubber

banned

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 34

Hello, I am kievclubber on pokerstars. So I play everyday 10-15 mtt's. I play up to 55usd. entries. I am looking for partners for my winnings. My english is not perfrect. I try to explain what I want. For example during the tournament. If I have deep stacked. And going for final table. I am looking someone to play with me by using teamviewer. its like coaching me. Or I am looking partners to sell some percents. If you are interested. pls pm me... thanks in advance....

11-20-2010 , 05:16 PM

#108

DoGGz

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 17,315

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeebsUK

Because running long tournament packages with rolling makeup is more complicated than single point markup sales.

11-21-2010 , 03:54 AM

#109

WeebsUK

centurion

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 130

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoGGz

Because running long tournament packages with rolling makeup is more complicated than single point markup sales.

markup examples to see if i've got it....

#1....

horse sells action at 20% markup, but takes none of the action himself, he pockets the 20% extra for the buyins, but takes no money from any score

#2

horse sells action at 0% markup, but takes none of the action himself, he pockets no money, only plays the events

#3

horse sells action at 0% markup, but takes half of the action himself, he only pockets money if he cashes, and he'll get half of it

#4

horse sells action at 20% markup, but takes half of the action himself, he pockets the extra 20% for the buy ins, and pocket half of any money from cashes

amirite?

11-22-2010 , 04:53 AM

#110

azan

banned

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 821

all seems right

11-22-2010 , 10:08 PM

#111

Potamito

banned

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 2,746

Im looking for advice here...My numbers overall sucks, but i start to play again on FTP recently as i feel a lot more confortable playing here, also since last month cuz i have been receiving coaching over FTP, and have show profit so far at the $0-$10 buy ins 181+ field in the past 120 days. Of course not a huge sample size cuz i havent got the proper roll to grind, so i friend sujested to open a BAP for $200-$300 to play <$5 freezouts MTTs on Tilt (including both early daily doubles) and setting the length of the stake for 10-15 days.
I have been staked three times by 2+2ers (lilman2636, Avaholic and Brad2002tj), if i commit to buy 20$ of my action...Would it be viable for to open a BAP for around $250 to grind <$5 freezout MTTs?
Here is a link to OPR distribute detail for buy ins between $0-$10 for 181+ field for the past 120 days.
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/5288/dibujoozo.jpg
Let me know what u think...Thanks.

12-21-2010 , 04:07 PM

#112

aviynw

stranger

Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 3

Quote:

Originally Posted by rje8686

Considerations for STAKING MTT players

References:

Before you consider anything else this must be your primary concern. You don’t want someone running with your money and not playing! The player should be able to provide one or two solid references. Normally post count or date of joining 2+2 will give you a good indication BUT don’t use these facts alone!

Graphs / OPR:

The player should post either OPR links/screenshots or Cash game graphs to show they are a good investment. Anything over 100k hands in cash games is an excellent sample to see if they are a solid player. A sample of 500-1k for mtt’s is ok but the more the better. It’s much harder to correct calculate since MTT’s vary so much.

Key OPR Stats:

Average buy in (ABI)

Does the player have a ABI of $5 yet wants to be staked for $200 MTT’s? Most people who look for staking are doing so to play slightly higher than they are used to hence they need a staking to reduce variance and so they don’t invest too much risk on their current bankroll.

ROI (Return on Investment)

ROI = (Profit / (Prizes–Profit) x 100

The higher the better. If they are below 0% then obviously anything you invest in them (on average) is going to lose you money! These vary wildly but anything above 20% should give you a nice return on your investment with anything above 50% being excellent. Just think if you had this money in a bank you would only make 2-5% if you are lucky. Although the risk is higher the rewards can also be much much better if you select the right players.

A player who has an ROI one site as 60% and the same player has an ROI of 25% on another sites doesn’t mean they have an average ROI of (60+25)/2 = 42.5% Nor does it mean they have one of 60-25=40%.
You must first sum the prizes of both sites and do the same for profit. Then use the above formula to calculate the correct average ROI.

Remember this is NOT set in stone! Any player can have a ROI of 50% one day and suddenly win $200k in the Sunday Million and suddenly have an ROI of >200%.

In The Money (ITM)

Anything above around the 10-12% is normal again the higher the better. This is the percentage of time the player makes the money. Anything above 15% here is excellent.

Mark-up

Mark-up is often applied to stakes where the play feels they have a good ‘edge’ for numerous reasons. Often players with good OPR stats ROI’s of >40%+ will be adding mark-up to their stakes. People who are playing a lot of events maybe 20 tourneys in a series might also add mark-up as they are reducing the variance by playing more tournaments.

Take the example of Player A. He’s got a ton of references and has player over 5k MTTS’s with a return of 60% ROI with an ABI of $45. They want to take a shot at the WCOOP and have decided to play 20 events from $50-100. He has decided that due to his ROI and since he’s playing a lot of events then he should charge a premium on the shares.

Player A is selling at 1.2-1 (A 20% premium). You pay 1.2% of the stake and you get a 1% share of any winnings. In this example every stakeholder should (in the long run) make a 40% on their money (so if you invest $100 on average you should see a return of $140). Since Player A has an average ROI of 60% yet you have paid a 20% premium.

Player B is much better and has an ROI of 96%. He wants to charge 1.3-1 (30% premium). In this case each stake holder should see and average return of 66%. Whilst you may be paying more for each share in the first place however much you invest you are likely to get a higher return.
If you consider both of these the returns are going to be high variance (compared to banks) but if you do your homework you should get much higher returns than any bank will offer you.

Taxes

If you are staking a player for a live event where potential winnings are high it makes a big difference if the player has to pay taxes on the winnings. Find out before hand so you don’t get stung later on. Lots of countries are tax free and offer stakers additional incentive.

Summary

I hope this clears up some of the issues involded in Staking MTT Players. Ofcourse you might just have a good feeling, know the player or just want to gamble in which case good luck and hope you get a share of any profits!

????????????????

I'm nearly positive this math is bogus. Think about it. Imagine someone with a %60 ROI selling at 3 to 1. According to this math, if someone buys a share, his average return on investment will be %60 - %200 = -%140. THIS MAKES NO SENSE!!!! THE MAX ONE CAN LOSE IS THE ENTIRE INVESTMENT, not more that that, as this would imply.

The logic here is flawed because it's not the difference between the investment and return that matters, it's THE RATIO between the investment and return that matters.

The real equation to calculate your average return is (AverageTotalReturn*ReturnRatio)

where the AverageTotalRetun is the amount the player will get back from the poker site i.e.

(investment amount * (1+ROI))

and the ReturnRatio is simply the odds he gives you.

So, for example, someone who buys $100 in shares at 1.2 to 1 from someone who has an average ROI of %60, the average return will be (100*(1+.6))*(1/1.2)

this is $133.333333333 etc. Not $140 as stated in the post. So your average profit will be %33 of your investment, not %40 of your investment.

In the same $100 investment case where the odds are 3 to 1 against you, your average return will be (100*(1+.6))*(1/3) = 53. Certainly more sensible than 100*(-%140) = -40. Once you place your investment, you can't lose more than that.

THIS POST SHOULD BE CORRECTED ASAP. IT'S GIVING OUT FALSE INFORMATION!

***EDIT*** I mispoke. An investor who reads this is not always going to get less in their investment than they expect. Sometimes, in the case of the 3 to 1 odds, they will actually be getting more than they expect. Regardless though, the post is giving out false information and should be corrected.

Last edited by aviynw; 12-21-2010 at 04:35 PM.

12-27-2010 , 09:54 AM

#113

MrP0P

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 3,657

much appricated info for us newbies thanks

I assume this is part of the process of getting "market approved" as it was mentioned to me? what else should be done?

thanks in advance
Domenic

12-29-2010 , 03:53 PM

#114

Darren_Kennedy

centurion

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 162

Quote:

Originally Posted by rje8686

Considerations for STAKING MTT players

Mark-up

Player A is selling at 1.2-1 (A 20% premium). You pay 1.2% of the stake and you get a 1% share of any winnings. In this example every stakeholder should (in the long run) make a 40% on their money (so if you invest $100 on average you should see a return of $140). Since Player A has an average ROI of 60% yet you have paid a 20% premium.

Player B is much better and has an ROI of 96%. He wants to charge 1.3-1 (30% premium). In this case each stake holder should see and average return of 66%. Whilst you may be paying more for each share in the first place however much you invest you are likely to get a higher return.
If you consider both of these the returns are going to be high variance (compared to banks) but if you do your homework you should get much higher returns than any bank will offer you.

Just wanted to make sure people arent misled on the numbers here. The above average returns are incorrect.

Lets take real numbers on Player A:
$100 tourney
Sells 1% for $1.20 (20% Markup)
ROI is 60%

Staker pays $1.20 and should on average get $1.60 return for that $1.20
Average return for staker is ($1.60-$1.20)/$1.20 = 33% (NOT the 40% claimed above)

Player B:
$100 tourney
Sells 1% for $1.30 (30% Markup)
ROI is 96%

Staker pays $1.30 and should on average get $1.96 return for that $1.30
Average return for staker is ($1.96-$1.30)/$1.30 = 51% (NOT the 66% claimed above)

Don't mean to nitpick, but this definately can have an affect on your decision to back someone who charges markup.

Last edited by Darren_Kennedy; 12-29-2010 at 03:55 PM. Reason: wanted to bold differences

12-29-2010 , 03:57 PM

#115

Darren_Kennedy

centurion

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 162

lol at me for not reading the whole thread before replying. Figures someone else mentioned the same thing

12-29-2010 , 09:49 PM

#116

MrP0P

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 3,657

Hi,

I'm hoping to get an honest opinion if when and if i get market approved down the line and I hold my stats what MU should is standard based on my stats. My main reason for even seeking a stake is to move up in limits of play without risk to BR. Thanks Domenic

http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...7B744.html?t=2

Last edited by MrP0P; 12-29-2010 at 09:54 PM. Reason: chart came in bad typos

12-30-2010 , 01:17 AM

#117

DaDonx69

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 219

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrP0P

MrP0P is a beast at MTTs. Any way for him to bypass the six month waiting period? I would definitely buy a piece.

01-01-2011 , 10:28 AM

#118

alex23

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,962

Hey guys,

What kind of agreements might be considered 'long term'? If I'm to stake someone at 50/50 split how many mtt's should I be looking for? Can anyone show me a little math behind your arguments?

Thanks,
Alex

01-19-2011 , 09:07 PM

#119

rodgethat

banned

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,186

hey sorry if this is off topic but i didnt know where else to ask this.
i cant make a new thread in online shares section and i dont know why. i have never been banned or anything, really dont know why. thanks for the help

01-19-2011 , 09:16 PM

#120

rodgethat

banned

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,186

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodgethat

nevermind im an idoit, just read that i need a 6 month bypass period

01-22-2011 , 02:19 PM

#121

Pleex

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 512

Sorry, pretty LC and off topic, but wouldn't know where else to ask.. basically I'm wondering if most people here are actually buying shares to make money, or even a living or just looking for some gambling/chance to rail.

01-22-2011 , 09:44 PM

#122

Zima421

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 18,973

seems like a weird question to ask.

01-26-2011 , 05:16 PM

#123

Supernova_Elite

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 3,771

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pleex

I personally always bought shares that I believed were +ev, although I beleive a fairly high % of the people who buy shares here are just gambling and looking for chances to rail.

02-06-2011 , 09:58 PM

#124

Get after it

banned

Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 24

I am currently laid up in the house with an injury and cannot work. I will give my address my childres names ss number and everything. i Just dont have the money to play online becasue i have a family. I win live 7 8 times a month at Hollywood casino im lawenceburg indiana. will take any deal i can get jusst out of straight boredome. Wont be able to go back to work till may due to an injury. If anyone wants to take a chance. Im the one to do it with cuz I pretyy good and i know Im profitabel. PM if interested. Thanx.

Last edited by Get after it; 02-06-2011 at 10:00 PM. Reason: wait cant get pms yet just post in this threead. I really am low risk. Just want a shot. Someone help pleas

03-03-2011 , 05:06 PM

#125

mkost

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 1,223

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zima421

if i go into threads and tell people they are basically getting ****ed over when they buy pieces of people each week with no MU (or cake as its called on ptp), it will just look like i am trolling.

What does this mean (MU/cake)? Is this the same as MU being mark-up?

Also, would someone give a couple examples of how stakeback works? I am really new to this.

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