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Old 09-11-2009, 10:08 PM   #1
rje8686
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*** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

Considerations for STAKING MTT players


References:

Before you consider anything else this must be your primary concern. You don’t want someone running with your money and not playing! The player should be able to provide one or two solid references. Normally post count or date of joining 2+2 will give you a good indication BUT don’t use these facts alone!

Graphs / OPR:

The player should post either OPR links/screenshots or Cash game graphs to show they are a good investment. Anything over 100k hands in cash games is an excellent sample to see if they are a solid player. A sample of 500-1k for mtt’s is ok but the more the better. It’s much harder to correct calculate since MTT’s vary so much.

Key OPR Stats:

Average buy in (ABI)

Does the player have a ABI of $5 yet wants to be staked for $200 MTT’s? Most people who look for staking are doing so to play slightly higher than they are used to hence they need a staking to reduce variance and so they don’t invest too much risk on their current bankroll.

ROI (Return on Investment)

ROI = (Profit / (Prizes–Profit) x 100

The higher the better. If they are below 0% then obviously anything you invest in them (on average) is going to lose you money! These vary wildly but anything above 20% should give you a nice return on your investment with anything above 50% being excellent. Just think if you had this money in a bank you would only make 2-5% if you are lucky. Although the risk is higher the rewards can also be much much better if you select the right players.

A player who has an ROI one site as 60% and the same player has an ROI of 25% on another sites doesn’t mean they have an average ROI of (60+25)/2 = 42.5% Nor does it mean they have one of 60-25=40%.
You must first sum the prizes of both sites and do the same for profit. Then use the above formula to calculate the correct average ROI.

Remember this is NOT set in stone! Any player can have a ROI of 50% one day and suddenly win $200k in the Sunday Million and suddenly have an ROI of >200%.

In The Money (ITM)

Anything above around the 10-12% is normal again the higher the better. This is the percentage of time the player makes the money. Anything above 15% here is excellent.

Mark-up

Mark-up is often applied to stakes where the play feels they have a good ‘edge’ for numerous reasons. Often players with good OPR stats ROI’s of >40%+ will be adding mark-up to their stakes. People who are playing a lot of events maybe 20 tourneys in a series might also add mark-up as they are reducing the variance by playing more tournaments.

Take the example of Player A. He’s got a ton of references and has player over 5k MTTS’s with a return of 60% ROI with an ABI of $45. They want to take a shot at the WCOOP and have decided to play 20 events from $50-100. He has decided that due to his ROI and since he’s playing a lot of events then he should charge a premium on the shares.

Player A is selling at 1.2-1 (A 20% premium). You pay 1.2% of the stake and you get a 1% share of any winnings. In this example every stakeholder should (in the long run) make a 40% on their money (so if you invest $100 on average you should see a return of $140). Since Player A has an average ROI of 60% yet you have paid a 20% premium.

Player B is much better and has an ROI of 96%. He wants to charge 1.3-1 (30% premium). In this case each stake holder should see and average return of 66%. Whilst you may be paying more for each share in the first place however much you invest you are likely to get a higher return.
If you consider both of these the returns are going to be high variance (compared to banks) but if you do your homework you should get much higher returns than any bank will offer you.

Taxes

If you are staking a player for a live event where potential winnings are high it makes a big difference if the player has to pay taxes on the winnings. Find out before hand so you don’t get stung later on. Lots of countries are tax free and offer stakers additional incentive.

Summary

I hope this clears up some of the issues involded in Staking MTT Players. Ofcourse you might just have a good feeling, know the player or just want to gamble in which case good luck and hope you get a share of any profits!

Last edited by rje8686; 09-11-2009 at 10:15 PM.
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Old 09-11-2009, 10:13 PM   #2
rje8686
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

Considerations for being STAKED



- Sell yourself. Make your post clear and easy to read. Don’t fill it with lots of useless information

- List clearly what events you want to play, the buyins and when the tourneys are

- The mark-up you are charging (or not as might be the case)

- The amount you want to sell (typically 30-75%)

- Clearly show how much 1% or 5% is

- Include all screen names of sites you play on

- Make sure any OPR links you provide are working

- Post any cash game graphs you might have

- Any References (the more the better)

- Any previous stakes you have done

- Any other information (e.g. exchange rate consideration/taxes)

- Post info on where backers can follow your progress (blogs/twitter etc etc)

Last edited by rje8686; 09-11-2009 at 10:18 PM.
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Old 09-11-2009, 10:15 PM   #3
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

this is a really good post I wish was up back when I was still grinding MTTs
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Old 09-11-2009, 10:16 PM   #4
rje8686
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

Please edit as you see fit mods (sticky might be useful if you think it is anygood). I might have missed something or made mistakes... I've tried to do best I can
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Old 09-11-2009, 11:06 PM   #5
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

I'm here to apply for the stake
pm sent cody1982 on stars

Last edited by Cody1982; 09-11-2009 at 11:06 PM. Reason: seriously solid post
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Old 09-11-2009, 11:08 PM   #6
I StackManz
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody1982 View Post
I'm here to apply for the stake
pm sent cody1982 on stars
wut???

Nice post btw rje8686
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Old 09-11-2009, 11:18 PM   #7
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

pls sticky
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Old 09-25-2009, 03:50 PM   #8
rje8686
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

bump
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Old 09-25-2009, 03:56 PM   #9
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

The only thing I notice you either leave out or don't believe is that the winrate of an MTTer is much more usless than that of a cash player. You take a guy with 3ptbb over 100k hes prob better than the guy break even over 100k every time, but a guy with 50% roi in 1k mtts may not even be better than a guy at 10% roi in 1k more than say 60% of the time. Evaluating the play of your horses and coaching them is especially
important for mtt staking
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Old 09-25-2009, 04:26 PM   #10
rje8686
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

I dont claim this is the full and finished product but its a start...I have noticed that i have missed out numerous things for this

It just a quick thing I came up with a few weeks ago.
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Old 10-05-2009, 08:31 AM   #11
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

thanks for the help
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Old 10-17-2009, 02:22 PM   #12
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

If I want to apply for staking as a part time player how many hands or games should I have under my belt? What should I include?

Thanks
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Old 10-17-2009, 02:30 PM   #13
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

it doesnt really matter if you are full or part time. just include all the games you have played. the more games you have, the better idea people have on if you are a winner or not.
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Old 10-22-2009, 01:44 PM   #14
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zima421 View Post
it doesnt really matter if you are full or part time. just include all the games you have played. the more games you have, the better idea people have on if you are a winner or not.
This is helpful, but what is a good sample size? I probably have under 20,000 hands and under 200 SNGs under my belt although I am a winning player.

Thanks,
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Old 10-22-2009, 01:57 PM   #15
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by kys ofdeth View Post
This is helpful, but what is a good sample size? I probably have under 20,000 hands and under 200 SNGs under my belt although I am a winning player.

Thanks,
1-2K 9 man SnGs with a winrate above 5% is generally a player who is at least breakeven, and more likely then not winning.
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Old 10-22-2009, 05:44 PM   #16
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by kys ofdeth View Post
This is helpful, but what is a good sample size? I probably have under 20,000 hands and under 200 SNGs under my belt although I am a winning player.

Thanks,
those sample sizes would prove close to nothing.
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Old 10-24-2009, 12:56 PM   #17
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

mods are gonna have to do something about the buy a piece soon, like this forum needs some sort of cake program like ptp has, dont love to ruin peoples hustles but kind of retarded for some people to sell action at 30% markup and basically get paid 30% of there cashes to play sunday regardless of win/loss.
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Old 10-24-2009, 10:34 PM   #18
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirLagsALot View Post
mods are gonna have to do something about the buy a piece soon, like this forum needs some sort of cake program like ptp has, dont love to ruin peoples hustles but kind of retarded for some people to sell action at 30% markup and basically get paid 30% of there cashes to play sunday regardless of win/loss.
well, i do agree with sirlags, but the marketplace mods and 2p2 have said they arent gonna do anything about it.

if i go into threads and tell people they are basically getting ****ed over when they buy pieces of people each week with no MU (or cake as its called on ptp), it will just look like i am trolling.

oh well...let the idiots keep investing til busto.
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Old 10-24-2009, 10:48 PM   #19
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

It really shouldn't be allowed at all :-/ The people doing it are basically scamming but I guess people are retarded for buying pieces with that high %.....
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:31 PM   #20
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

Sadly, I agree with the post above. I see break even players selling as high as 30% markup, and up to 70% of their action so that they're essentially freerolling 30% action for themselves. Then there are even some 2p2 regs who are selling even higher markups here for HSMTTs that they are barely +EV in at best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timex View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you are mistaken in thinking there is any difference in fair makeup between buying action in 1 tournament compared to 25 tournaments. If anything you should charge at a lower markup because of the larger investment people are making and the fact that they are forced to buy all 25 rather than having the opportunity to buy %'s of the few they think are best value.
Investors don't realize this at all, which is why they continue to burn any EV they might be having in the first place when they invest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zima421 View Post
let the idiots keep investing til busto.
I guess Zima said it best
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Old 10-25-2009, 01:15 PM   #21
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

I don't really think there's anything wrong with the system. The investors have to decide based on the poster and the stats if they think its profitable, we're all(mostly) adults and can make our own decisions.

I'm not exactly sure how "cake" works. I guess it makes sense for the guys who sell like 70% of themselves and are freerolling but if you are still putting up 1/3 of the buyins for yourself you should see some of it back if you have a losing day imo
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Old 10-26-2009, 12:48 AM   #22
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

I think that if 2+2 want to let people offer service X on the forums they must put enough information on X for people to make a well informed decision about it somewhere on a sticky or something.

Just saying that people are adults and should be able to make their own decsion is pretty poor defense.

If the information is there for people and they still want to buy shares from somebody selling it with 60% mark up and no chance to recoup lost money (cake)even though there is information on the forums outlining how ridiculous it is then it is up to them.

It is only when I stumbled on ptp the other day I realised how crazy what people are getting away with here is...
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Old 10-26-2009, 12:00 PM   #23
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

why cant i create any thread there, do i need more posts or whats the matter?
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Old 10-26-2009, 01:38 PM   #24
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

well imo people should be able to "troll" the ****ty deals threads and let other members know it's not a good deal, if people continue to sell 70% at 40% markup and can make 50-100k a year while LOSING other peoples money at poker then the entire buy a piece part of staking forums will go in the ****ter.
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Old 10-28-2009, 04:53 AM   #25
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Re: *** A Guide to Staking / Being Staked for MTT Players ***

Anyone willing to give some advice on how to seek a stake for two players would be greatly appreciated. I feel like this would be semi out to of the norm, as we are both roommates that grind low stakes Mtts. We both have >100% ROI for the past 2 years with very impressive stat histories. imo. Just looking to not have to withdraw monthly to pay bills. Basically, we are looking for the best deal possible, as we feel this would be an extremely lucrative investment for someone. So, any advice on what type of deals we should be looking for would be appreciated.

http://officialpokerrankings.com/ful...5767A.html?t=2

http://officialpokerrankings.com/ful...ACF4E.html?t=2
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